InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted May 21, 2013 10:25 AM
06 ZX14 Hesitation/Fuel Cut at Partial Decel -Please Help!
Hey All!
I'm having problems with driveability on my 2006 ZX14. Here's a brief rundown:
2006 ZX14. Stock displacement, JE forged pistons, ported cylinder head, stock degreed cams. Flies out. NO TRE.
PCV Power commander with Brock's map. MSD SB6 ignition (for 2-step and timing adjustments). 91 octane fuel.
The timing is stock for now - no advance or ignition retard.
Here's the issue: The bike cruises at maintained throttle position, partial accleration, and wide open throttle just fine. But at the slightest deceleration from constant cruising RPM, it starts to miss and sounds like the fuel is being cut. I have tried two different maps (including Brock's map, for flies OUT) and it's persistent. For example - cruising at constant 80 mph - no problem. But, once you approach a vehicle in front of you and slightly let out of the throttle, it bucks, misses, sounds like it's hitting a limiter or fuel cut. Once you give it a bit more throttle, it goes away and cruises just fine. Please note, I'm talking about 'partial decel', meaning the throttle is not closed, just slightly backed off from the constant cruise throttle position.
A related issue - when the bike is stopped, I can put it in first gear, pull the clutch in, and try to hold the RPM at 3500... it misses and the RPM bounces all over the place... up to 4500, then cuts out, down to 2500, back up again.
The bike does NOT do this in neutral. I can sit on the bike without moving, put it in neutral, pull the clutch in, and the bike holds a steady RPM.
The MSD SB6 'tricks' the bike into thinking it's in 6th gear all the time, meaning my gear indicator says '6' all the time. Since the bike acts normal in neutral but abnormal in gear, I'm thinking it has something to do with the SB6.
I have calibrated the throttle position sensor with the power commander. I have taken the slack out of the throttle cables. I have run a bottle of Wynn PowerCharge, just in case it was a gummed throttle body or injector issue. This is MORE than just the 'decel pop'. It happens worst at 3000-4500 rpm at cruising speed with minimal decel. It does not happen when the throttle is completely closed, it only happens at partial decel.
Does anyone have any advice? Please help! =D
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
  
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted May 21, 2013 01:29 PM
When you say you have "calibrated the throttle position sensor with the power commander" do you mean you have calibrated the Power Commander to the TPS.. as in zeroed and set WOT in its software for the PC to work correctly... or you have actually adjusted the TPS itself, on the side of the TBs?
The issue you describe sounds close to an issue I was able to solve on an 07. Throttle still open but just barely and the motor would stumble and cut off as if you had completely closed throttle. It was annoying as hell. It made slight throttle cruising or controlled partial throttle decel impossible. I used the Power Commander software in real time to adjust the TPS manually while the bike ran. I just used the software to watch it as I adjusted so I had a starting point and could adjust it in small increments. After the first attempt it was better but still did the same thing a little. After a second tweak it was solved and perfect. It was not the most technically accurate way to adjust the TPS but solved the issue. There is probably a correct way to do it where you find the lowest voltage and then sync that position on the TPS to the throttle plate rod being completely closed. I could not find this in the service manual however. Everything I looked up said to replace the TBs.. lame! Maybe a dealer tech bulletin for certain situations or a factory only thing when the TBs are made? Once I had bumped the TPS enough that it only cut fuel and acted like closed throttle when the throttle was actually closed, it was fine. Then I re-calibrated the zero and WOT in the power commander software.
Same issue? Perhaps I have misread your post?
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Beondwacko
Expert Class
Posts: 393
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posted May 21, 2013 03:27 PM
How does the bike run with the power commander not in the loop?
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08' Atomic Silver, PCIII, Brocks pipe,BMC, -1, strapped front end
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InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted May 22, 2013 10:45 PM
quote:
When you say you have "calibrated the throttle position sensor with the power commander" do you mean you have calibrated the Power Commander to the TPS.. as in zeroed and set WOT in its software for the PC to work correctly... or you have actually adjusted the TPS itself, on the side of the TBs?
quote:
The issue you describe sounds close to an issue I was able to solve on an 07. Throttle still open but just barely and the motor would stumble and cut off as if you had completely closed throttle. It was annoying as hell. It made slight throttle cruising or controlled partial throttle decel impossible. I used the Power Commander software in real time to adjust the TPS manually while the bike ran. I just used the software to watch it as I adjusted so I had a starting point and could adjust it in small increments. After the first attempt it was better but still did the same thing a little. After a second tweak it was solved and perfect. It was not the most technically accurate way to adjust the TPS but solved the issue. There is probably a correct way to do it where you find the lowest voltage and then sync that position on the TPS to the throttle plate rod being completely closed. I could not find this in the service manual however. Everything I looked up said to replace the TBs.. lame! Maybe a dealer tech bulletin for certain situations or a factory only thing when the TBs are made? Once I had bumped the TPS enough that it only cut fuel and acted like closed throttle when the throttle was actually closed, it was fine. Then I re-calibrated the zero and WOT in the power commander software.
Same issue? Perhaps I have misread your post?
I think this is exactly my problem! Would you mind giving me a link, or explaining how to adjust the TPS itself?
After reading your post, I'm pretty sure what I did was wrong.
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
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posted May 23, 2013 06:10 AM
Do an Internet search and you will find it shown on a few other sites....
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2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted May 23, 2013 08:01 AM
Seno,
Thanks for the suggestion!
I'm finding a lot of posts about how to calibrate the TPS with the power commander.
It sounds like MotoCycho is saying there's a separate process to calibrate the TPS with the throttle plates? I'm having a hard time finding a write-up about that.
Thanks!
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted May 23, 2013 09:09 AM
 Edited By: MotoCycho on 23 May 2013 17:10
Hi Eric,
I know of no write up or whatever on this. I can try and remember what I did and advise you here.
Under the foreman grill on the right side of the bike you will find two position sensors on the TB. The top one, gray, is for the secondary plates and can be ignored. The bottom one, black, is the TPS. You will need a safety bit for your driver to fit the adjustment lock down screw. I think it's a regular torx but has a hole in it. Might be an allen.. been a while since I did this. I got a set of these bits at Harbor Freight for under $10.
Before you loosen the locking screw warm the bike fully and make sure your throttle cables are properly adjusted and most important that the throttle is snapping all the way closed. Connect the USB cable from your Power Commander to the PC and open the software. Look for the throttle position calibration section and open it with the bike running. You can see the minimum number real time when the throttle is closed with the bike running. If you blip the throttle you can see the number change. It is the fact that you can read this real time that is going to help you adjust the actual TPS on the bike. The goal is to adjust the TPS so that the lowest number it can read is in line with the throttle plate when it is actually closed and and not slightly before. The PC software just shows you a starting reference point real time and the actual value is not important. Do not calibrate in the PC software until you are done making adjustments at the TPS or your starting ref # will have changed and you will either have to do the math for the amount you have already moved it minus or plus where it now is or you will simply have to start over and hope you get it with a guess... which will probably be fine too. I can't remember the direction you need to turn it.. but if you watch the value and adjust it so the value goes up a small amount then that is the correct direction. Test ride and repeat. By moving the TPS so the min value shows a higher number in the PC software you are actually moving it so that the minimum value it can send the ECU is at or below the spot where the plates are actually closed and not slightly before... make sense?
When the bike no longer does the nose dive and fuel cut when the throttle is cracked open then you are done adjusting the TPS and you can then recalibrate the PC to the new values it is now sending the ECU.
Disclaimer: It's been a while since I did this and perhaps my advise and logic are flawed? Your mileage may vary.
Also, please, anyone, don't hesitate to correct me if I have give erroneous information.
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InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted May 23, 2013 09:33 AM
MotoCycho, thanks so much!
I know what I'm doing after work today!
The part throttle/decel hesitation makes it really tough to enjoy driving sometimes!
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted May 23, 2013 10:09 AM
quote:
MotoCycho, thanks so much!
I know what I'm doing after work today!
The part throttle/decel hesitation makes it really tough to enjoy driving sometimes!
No problem. Hope I remembered and explained it well enough for you to fix yours.
My friend's bike did the exact same thing. It was fine at idle and as long as you were accelerating.. and since he only uses it for drag racing.. WOT  .... he never noticed it. I took the bike for a couple weeks to do some work on it and during my test rides I was like WTF? My bike doesn't do this at all. Forced me to fix it.
Report your results.
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted May 23, 2013 01:13 PM
Wait... I think my logic is flawed. Move the TPS so that the min value goes down in the software, not up. Then recalibrate the PC after you are satisfied the issue is resolved. Man, I hope that's correct. I could tear into mine but I just don't want to. 
Look.. there is only two ways you can go.. try one.. ride.. if it's better, then that was the right way. if it is not better then do the same amount the other direction past the starting point.
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InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted May 23, 2013 02:59 PM
I wouldn't expect you to take yours apart just to remember!
I understand the concept you're explaining, I think that's what matters most!
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
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cliffrandall
Zone Head
Posts: 757
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posted May 23, 2013 06:27 PM
Edited By: cliffrandall on 24 May 2013 02:27
I know this may sound a little rough, however it's interesting. We used to rotate the TPS counter clockwise, by hand, to enrichen the fuel mixture on the original FI bikes back when there were no Power Commanders in 1999. 1/8 inch turn would usually add enough fuel down low that we could bolt on an aftermarket free flow exhaust and not 'pop the neighbourhood to death' on deceleration. Bike ran fine.
Cliff
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted May 27, 2013 09:33 PM
BUMP!
The suspense is killing me on this one.... update please?
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InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted May 31, 2013 09:44 AM
Haha!
MotoCycho, I got home and pulled out the laptop.
As I described before, the hesistation is at partial decel but also at constant throttle when the clutch is in.
For example, If I don't use the two step, I pull up to the starting line at the drag strip and try to hold the RPM at 3500 RPM... it won't do it. It jumps to 4500, then cuts out and drops to 2500, then spikes to 5000 RPM, etc.
I duplicated this while watching the laptop... I put the bike in first gear (gear indicator reads '6' due to MSD SB6), and tried to hold the rpm at 3500... same issue.
I did this while looking at the Dynojet software on the laptop... the fueling stays the same (+5, or whatever the fuel map is telling it to do)... the TPS input stays exactly the same (5%).... but the RPM box goes from 3500 to ----, then 25xx, then 4000, then ----, then 3000 RPM, etc. This makes me think it's an ignition problem.
I put the bike in neutral (gear indicator reads 'N') and the problem goes away.
Just to clarify it is NOT hitting the two step, and it's not as clean as a rev limiter. It's an ignition MISS... for a second the ignition is cut, then comes back in. The ignition cut is not 'clean-sounding' at all.
I've checked my grounds (battery, power commander, SB6, etc)... even sanded the mounting points to ensure the paint wasn't preventing a ground. I'm starting to think it's SB6-related.
I was thinking a bad coil might be the issue, but the fact that it goes away in neutral means it's not a coil.
Funny thing is that it is perfectly fine when accelerating and at WOT... meaning it pulls nice, smooth, and hard up to redline. Having said that, I drive it on the street and it takes some of the fun out of driving... :/
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted May 31, 2013 10:43 AM
Hum? It does sound like a 2-step issue the way you describe it now.
I use an SB6 on my bike. I installed a switch on the wire going to the clutch so I can turn off the 2-step function entirely at will. Also installed a switch on the speed sensor wire so it disables the TRE function and gear indicator works when I am on the street.
Based on what you describe it sounds like your SB6 thinks your bike is stopped when its still moving and applying the 2-step hold.
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted May 31, 2013 10:49 AM
Edited By: MotoCycho on 31 May 2013 18:50
Oh.. another thing I learned while playing with the SB6 software the hard way. If you use the option in the software under the RPM advance curve.. called "Zero Curve", it actually drops the timing advance to -20 not the zero mark. This will make your shit run awful real fast. Double check you have your timing at actual zero or wherever you want it and not actually pulled.
Another thing it could be is the output shaft RPM setting. Perhaps you have it set too high. I think you can raise it as high as 500. Perhaps the SB6 thinks you are stopped? I set that to zero.
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InlandEmpireRider
Novice Class
SoCalZX14
Posts: 50
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posted September 03, 2013 08:54 AM
quote:
BUMP!
The suspense is killing me on this one.... update please?
MotoCycho, I have great news!
I FINALLY got around to messing with this issue again.
I loosened the throttle position sensor using a "star bit" obtained from Harbor Freight - it's a star-head socket with a hole in the middle.
With the bike running, I rotated the sensor counterclockwise, which made the voltage value on the power commander software go DOWN. I started at roughly 0.5v, ended up at roughly 0.34 volts. Took it for a spin... it made the problem WORSE! Cruising at steady throttle or slight decel was breaking up more than before... I took this as a GOOD thing, because I knew I was on the right track!
Rode back home, loosened the TPS, and turned it CLOCKwise, making the voltage value INCREASE on the PC software. I rotated it enough that bike actually stalled and wouldn't idle. I backed off slightly and ended up around 0.7 volts. Took it for a spin... steady, partial throttle (cruising) feels GREAT now and it doesn't buck/cut out like before! I ran out of time and only took it around the block, but I couldn't reproduce the bucking at all!
Big thanks to you MotoCycho!
____________
-Eric in SoCal
06 ZX14, 8.96 @ 151.1 mph, 1.46 60 foot, 245-250 lb rider
Videos here: http://www.youtube.com/boostMD
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted September 03, 2013 09:35 AM
Funny you mention this now. A friend of mine has an 07 and has been having cut out problems in low throttle position at around 4000 RPM which we pin pointed as caused by the Speedohealer.. not sure how that works yet but thanks to a few posts here where others have had similar issues we found this info and took it out of the loop and it was instantly better. Anyway, during the trouble shooting we calibrated his TPS based on the specs in the service manual. The service manual doesn't actually give adjustment procedures because Kawasaki just says replaces the TBs.. um.. right! Anyway.. the spec is .63 - 3.77 volts for full range 0-100%. The TPS can read lower or higher if turned beyond theses points but the start point is really the only thing that is critical to set. We set his about .64-.65 volts and it seems to be perfect. Before, when I figured out the adjustment I described earlier in this thread I was just guessing. Better to know the actual volts.. and I'd saw .7 is just about perfect based on what we figured out ourselves just a few days ago. Glad to hear you got it sorted.
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CajunBoyz
Zone Head
Posts: 702
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posted September 03, 2013 03:16 PM
quote:
Funny you mention this now. A friend of mine has an 07 and has been having cut out problems in low throttle position at around 4000 RPM which we pin pointed as caused by the Speedohealer.. not sure how that works yet but thanks to a few posts here where others have had similar issues we found this info and took it out of the loop and it was instantly better. Anyway, during the trouble shooting we calibrated his TPS based on the specs in the service manual. The service manual doesn't actually give adjustment procedures because Kawasaki just says replaces the TBs.. um.. right! Anyway.. the spec is .63 - 3.77 volts for full range 0-100%. The TPS can read lower or higher if turned beyond theses points but the start point is really the only thing that is critical to set. We set his about .64-.65 volts and it seems to be perfect. Before, when I figured out the adjustment I described earlier in this thread I was just guessing. Better to know the actual volts.. and I'd saw .7 is just about perfect based on what we figured out ourselves just a few days ago. Glad to hear you got it sorted.
i HAVE THE same PROBLEM ON MY 06..mY MAP IS FINE TUNNED & RUNS GREAT.. BUT I GET BAD DECELLING POPPING WHEN LETTIN OFF THE THROTTLE 5K & BELOW.. What do i do with .65 volts??? use a volt meter ??? Do i adjust the TPS on the power commander after setting the .65v??? PLEASE giveme thorugh instructions
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"Cajun Boyz with Bad Ass Toys"
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MotoCycho
Expert Class
Posts: 337
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posted September 03, 2013 03:58 PM
quote:
i HAVE THE same PROBLEM ON MY 06..mY MAP IS FINE TUNNED & RUNS GREAT.. BUT I GET BAD DECELLING POPPING WHEN LETTIN OFF THE THROTTLE 5K & BELOW.. What do i do with .65 volts??? use a volt meter ??? Do i adjust the TPS on the power commander after setting the .65v??? PLEASE giveme thorugh instructions
Not the same thing at all.
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CajunBoyz
Zone Head
Posts: 702
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posted September 04, 2013 02:42 AM
AWHhh, Thought i had finally got some info on this annoyingdecel pop(and i don't want a dam TRE) I have spoke to GUHL numerous times about this, but not much luck... Will have to see what Woolich has on this, They are REALLY stepping up the pace for the KAW guys ECU's
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"Cajun Boyz with Bad Ass Toys"
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