Bagster
Zone Head
Posts: 630
|
posted June 14, 2008 02:06 PM
"Heated debate" among friends
I know there are a lot of very experienced and intelligent bikers on this forum, and I hope that at least a few will chime in.
My good friend Marty and I have two items of contention.
1. Counter steering.
In my experience, at highway speeds, when you want to make a right turn for example, you push the right bar (or countersteer) and continue pushing that bar until you reach the desired lean angle.
You can make adjustments "in turn" but you are always countersteering through the turn, and applying pressure on the "inside bar".
Marty, who has done much research on the subject, and is very intelligent, says otherwise.
He claims that you enter the turn by countersteering and then you are turning into the turn to keep the bike from falling.
A quote from Marty.
"Turning into the turn stops the dropping to the right.
It is the only thing that can stop you from lowsiding.
We know countersteering throws the bike toward the ground.
Turning into the turn balances the bike in the turn.
Turning further into the turn brings the bike back up."
I find this to be true only at very low parking lot speeds.
I know there is a lot going on in the way of physics when a bike corners, and it is possible that the front tire is actually turning slightly right in the right turn, but the force by the riders hand is always a countersteer until he wishes to exit the turn.
We would both welcome the input of a professional racer, or a physicist (or 3) if some of you could kindly shine some light on the subject.
===========================================================================================================================
Hypothetical Item of contention #2
Same bike, Same rider, Same corner.
Let say our rider enters this corner at 50mph and sits rigidly centered on the bike throughout the turn. (lean angle is decided by maximum tire contact patch in this case)
His lean angle is maxed out and 50mph is all he can safely muster in the turn.
His second attempt he decides to drag his knee and get off the seat , his bike stays same exact lean angle as the first run, and he is able to go 15mph faster (for example) than before.
The question is, since he is off the seat and lowering his CG, does it make it "easier on the tires" even though the bike is going 15mph faster?
I would say there is more load on the tires due to more centrifugal force on the higher speed bike.
Marty disagrees.
Will someone please help?
We need some serious third party intervention! 
  
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted June 14, 2008 02:30 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 14 Jun 2008 15:35
This is a long winded question.
To simplify things I will state that I only countersteer to get it layed over at high speeds, or for quick transitions at slow speeds.
I steer into the corner once the bike begins to fall in, to obtain desired lean angle and corner radius.
When snap countersteering at 50 mph, the 14 will transition so fast the rear wheel feels like it is coming around and almost off the ground!
The local 600 and 1000 guys can't believe the corner speeds I carry, but they just don't know how to ride.
A 600 should be able to blast by the 14 in corners if the rider is experienced.
I always hang my body off more before leaning the bike all thee way over, keeping the bike upright as possible, and more contact patch on the road. Also you have a better chance of sving it if it begins to slide when the bike is not on the edge of the tire already.
This is very important with bikes limited by ground clearance.
The zx14 will drag its pegs and lower fairings before you run out of rubber on the edge.
A person who has felt the edges of adhesion, and experisnced how his bike handles when at the edge, and snap counter steered the bike many times in a controlled situation has a much better chance of avoiding a collision with a car that cuts him off.
Sounds like you need to ride it more instead of listening to, or arguing with everyone else.
Every bike handles different, and everyone has differnt riding habits.
Theory is never as good as practice!
Hope i answered your questions without offending you.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
Bagster
Zone Head
Posts: 630
|
posted June 14, 2008 02:46 PM
Sorry if I got a bit carried away with the typing.
No offense taken, I know how things can get on this board, and welcome every bit of input
|
lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
|
posted June 14, 2008 05:14 PM
Edited By: lucky14 on 14 Jun 2008 18:18
This sometimes settles discussions on countersteering, if you believe Keith Code knows a thing or 2 about riding:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
Don't miss the video just under the image at the top of the page.......
____________
You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
|
stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
|
posted June 14, 2008 05:18 PM
quote:
This sometimes settles discussions on countersteering, if you believe Keith Code knows a thing or 2 about riding:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
Keith Code!!!
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
|
Bagster
Zone Head
Posts: 630
|
posted June 14, 2008 06:25 PM
Keith Says:
"Steering a motorcycle results from the process of pushing the inside bar forward."
But dubious says he steers into some turns.
can you steer either direction and still go around the same corner?
This is what is making me nuts.
It does not seem possible.
The only time I feel I turn in, is at slow speeds.
|
BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
|
posted June 14, 2008 11:02 PM
Countersteer to enter then nuetral to MAINTAIN lean angle. if you want to increase lean angle then once again you countersteer if you want to decrease lean angle then you turn in
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted June 15, 2008 05:11 AM
quote:
Countersteer to enter then nuetral to MAINTAIN lean angle. if you want to increase lean angle then once again you countersteer if you want to decrease lean angle then you turn in
+1
Exactly
Maybe I didn't explain clearly.
Go out and try it, try it on a wide highway with no traffic.
Try it on a 4 lane highway with no one around.
Pretend you are doing slalom and start of with light inputs, then gradually become more aggressive.
Counter the transitions, like your in a series of chicanes.
You will get the feel for it.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
|
posted June 15, 2008 08:54 AM
Dubious, I have a talent for explaing things ina way that stupid people can understand LMAO it comes from my years as a salesman.
|
xzonefour
Parking Attendant
Posts: 24
|
posted June 15, 2008 06:55 PM
I guess I'm confused by all the confusion. When I push on the right grip the bike leans to the right thus creating a right lean angle and therefore going that way. Push left go left. I guess I never think of it as "steering" at all. I don't think of steering a motorcycle rather than making it lean. I mean after all you must lean the bike to turn at anything greater than 12 to 20 mph depending on rake/trail etc. In other words you lean a bike you don't steer it. I'm not saying this as fact but just how I think of it. You push right and lean right. The more you push the more you lean. You push the opposite direction to reduce the lean until you return to center or beyond center thus creating an opposite lean and therefore a different direction. BTW this is my first post being back on the board as I have reacquired a zx14 of the SE variety. Yay!!
|
Bagster
Zone Head
Posts: 630
|
posted June 15, 2008 07:10 PM
Dubious,
This all started when I mentioned to my friend that when I was in a long 270 degree on ramp at 45mph, I applied a consistent force to the inside bar until exiting the turn. (I call it countersteering.)
No "neutral pressure" there is always at least 5 Lbs force on the inside bar.
My friend told me that I was not countersteering, but steering "into the turn" to keep the bike from falling.
Since then no good has come. :-)
|
countersteer
Needs a job
Didn't read the owners manual
Posts: 2207
|
posted June 15, 2008 07:57 PM
hmm
____________
Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
|
ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
|
posted June 15, 2008 10:35 PM
Kieth has the No BS bikes......you ride and grasp solid handles and try to steer it w/o countersteering. While you can make it take a SLIGHT curve - you CAN'T steer it really.
You will notice that the front wheel is forward of the pivot point - unlike a bicycle. When you steer you effectively bend the bike between the wheels and it falls away from that "bend." It is the centrifugal force that keeps it from hitting the ground. It's falling one way, but the forward motion now applied sideways keeps it in balance.
Some people will still argue the CSing is a MYTH 
____________
2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
|
kawasaki_1965
Parking Attendant
Bone Stocker
Posts: 27
|
posted June 17, 2008 12:37 PM
in a nutshelll....YOU are correct! no further explanation required. Just because someone is intelligent doesnt make them right about anything!
|
Superman T
Pro
Posts: 1831
|
posted June 18, 2008 07:03 AM
You know, most advance motorcycle training classes teaches this very thing. I think that portion was great to hear/perform to prepare riders proper reactions and essential if you ever ride w/one hand. They should make it mandatory for every motorcyclist to attend a similar training class....IMHO
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC