Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted July 27, 2007 09:42 AM
WHy more hp in 5th than 4th?
Ryan Schnitz said its typical on his dyno. They all make 3 or so more hp in 5th than 4th even with my set-up. Flys out , Smeg, Brock map. Normal things. Is it the timing where a Ivans tre will take care of this?
  
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Ojref
Expert Class
Posts: 336
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posted July 27, 2007 09:52 AM
Timing maps vary in each gear. In order get a pull to read more accurate, your bike must be in a gear that matches your drive ratio to get closest to 1:1 with the crank. If you change your drive gearing (sprockets), this must be accounted for. The TRE in theory would permit the same timing map for all driven gear ratios, so if you wanted to do a pull in 4th you would eliminate timing as the inconsistent parameter, but if 4th isn't optimal for the reading, you'll have to apply a correction factor. It all depends on how the dyno measures the power.
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2006 Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja, Red now with mo' Brock's in my lyfe
1991 Yamaha Vmax - Because I need a mule to carry the manhood
2002 Ford Lightning - Ford GT Aluminum block engined, 802HP 911TQ now WhippleCharged
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted July 27, 2007 11:15 AM
I think you're confusing two problems: Engine management settings affecting power output and the shortcomings of inertial dynos.
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Ojref
Expert Class
Posts: 336
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posted July 27, 2007 11:55 AM
quote:
I think you're confusing two problems: Engine management settings affecting power output and the shortcomings of inertial dynos.
Yes, this 
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2006 Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja, Red now with mo' Brock's in my lyfe
1991 Yamaha Vmax - Because I need a mule to carry the manhood
2002 Ford Lightning - Ford GT Aluminum block engined, 802HP 911TQ now WhippleCharged
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 27, 2007 03:13 PM
its called ECU somebody on this site should donate an ecu to Ridge Racer..
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted July 27, 2007 05:23 PM
That won't fix the dyno.
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted July 27, 2007 07:50 PM
 Edited By: bigdtd on 27 Jul 2007 20:51
don't waste your change on a tre. dynos are worthless too because you do not get your airbox pressurized. the only thing a dyno will do is get you started in the right direction down low and waste your rear tire and possibly your clutch. start on the dyno then tune to the real conditions on the track or street. or get a map from someone that really knows their shit. if you dyno race, tune your bike on a dyno. my bike will never see one.or a tre. why would i want to loose my gear indicator and go slower et's?
back to the thread, 5th makes more hp than 4th due to ecu settings.
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted July 27, 2007 11:22 PM
Good point on the dyno being just a simulation. It's easy to lose sight of that, particularly when real-world testing opportunities are difficult to come by.
I can't comment on the applicability of TRE's or Teka Fires to a ZX-14, but on our roadrace bikes, they are an economical way to access the unrestricted fifth-gear maps, as well as bypass the sixth-gear speed limiter. Kit ECU's are 10-20 times more expensive, but allow complete control over fuel, spark and other functions.
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zx12dak
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted July 28, 2007 05:08 AM
I remember Ryan saying that when I was there. Kind of interesting.
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted July 28, 2007 08:43 PM
quote:
don't waste your change on a tre. dynos are worthless too because you do not get your airbox pressurized. the only thing a dyno will do is get you started in the right direction down low and waste your rear tire and possibly your clutch. start on the dyno then tune to the real conditions on the track or street. or get a map from someone that really knows their shit. if you dyno race, tune your bike on a dyno. my bike will never see one.or a tre. why would i want to loose my gear indicator and go slower et's?
back to the thread, 5th makes more hp than 4th due to ecu settings.
Maybe someone has proven different on a 14 but with the Busa a TRE will not slow down E.Ts. matter of fact back to back pulls showed a couple hp difference having the tre on as opposed to taking it off. Also back to back passes showed no loss or improvement with it off or on. So not really sure where you got your info. As far as losing the gear indicator, I can still count to 6 and subtract to figure out what gear I'm in if the tre will give me the 5th gear hp in all the gears. My bikes aren't dyno queens but my busa had over 250 pulls and had run over 160 mph with a 200 pound rider so I think I'm well educated with what a dyno is used for. Please don't treat me as a beginner as i can probably school most of you when it comes to this stuff. My simple question was, is the difference between 5th and 4th only the timing? If so, then it's well worth 60 or so dollars to get the 3 or so x-tra hp. And also for your info, the dyno doesn't put anywhere near the stress on your tire and clutch as a dragstrip, unless of course you ride like a girl. ( just an expression, nothing against girls as I have seen a few that I wouldn't want to line up with. LOL) By the way, what are your E.TS if you don't mind me asking???
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted July 28, 2007 08:47 PM
quote:
Good point on the dyno being just a simulation. It's easy to lose sight of that, particularly when real-world testing opportunities are difficult to come by.
I can't comment on the applicability of TRE's or Teka Fires to a ZX-14, but on our roadrace bikes, they are an economical way to access the unrestricted fifth-gear maps, as well as bypass the sixth-gear speed limiter. Kit ECU's are 10-20 times more expensive, but allow complete control over fuel, spark and other functions.
Exactly why I used it on my old busa. There was a huge difference in cruising around with it on as opposed to running without it. Brock had claimed a loss of 1 1/2 tenths or so at the strip. Wasn't the case with my bike nor others that did the same thing. Run with it on then take it off. Did this back to back 6 times. No difference. I believe the tre works as its supposed too.
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted July 29, 2007 05:02 AM
Edited By: bigdtd on 29 Jul 2007 06:08
tre opens the flies earlier, if you take the flies out, what good is the tre?
this is not a busa. and the tre doesn't change the top speed restriction either on a 14, and it screws up your display of gear. pulling the flies is free, i just don't see the need for a tre on a 14 but to each his own. i do not have a problem with anyone else using whatever they want on their bike.
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 29, 2007 06:55 AM
Pat i don't thing the guys were trying to piss in your oatmeal..They just don't know you or your history yet ...
As for the TRE you are going to have to test it and see if it works just like you did on your Busa...My guess it would be a waste of money..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted July 29, 2007 08:05 AM
Ok- so all it does is open the fly's. True - get rid of them and it's a waste of $$. On the Busa, it changes timing also. Just figured it might do the same which is why the difference in Hp between the two gears. So that rules that out. Thanks for the help.
Ps- quit pissing in my oatmeal. LOL
Just trying to figure this thing out so I can get every last bit out of it.
I know i'm new to this site, but most definatly ain't new. Just hate to see the answers I've seen newbees get for years. Some shit just common sense, I'm looking for the stuff that ain't so common.
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Red1
Expert Class
Posts: 442
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posted July 29, 2007 11:02 PM
Pat,
Don't know you personally but I will attest to the fact that you were very helpful and straightforward on the Dark Side...LOL
Welcome to the Board...there are a lot of knowledgeable people on the board that will offer you many years of experience. Unfortunately my 07 14 only has 150 miles on it so I can't be of any help at this point.
Take Care
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Red12/Blue14
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted July 30, 2007 03:11 AM
You guys always forget that the ZX14 has TWO different versions of the TRE available. One for with flies and one for WITHOUT!!
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted July 30, 2007 05:03 AM
quote:
You guys always forget that the ZX14 has TWO different versions of the TRE available. One for with flies and one for WITHOUT!!
Sumbitch- now thats the info I need. The second one has to have something to do with the timing. Now I gots to do some research.
Thank-you sir!
RED- congrats on the bike! I just turned 1000 miles on my way to work this morning.
PS- WHipped the shit out of a busa setup identical to my 14. All the bolt-ons and mapped by Ryan S. Left him hard. Worse than I thought actually.
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burnout
Expert Class
Posts: 216
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posted July 31, 2007 09:08 AM
I asked Brock the same question and he said that the TRE will affect timing on the Busa but does not on the 14. According to him, all of the de-tuning done by Kaw in the lower gears is from the secondary flies alone. We are still waiting on the PC ignition module, but I'd love to pick up 3-4HP for $70 bucks. Can't wait to hear back on this.
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1/8 5.66@129.77
1/4 8.74@159.60
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted July 31, 2007 11:26 PM
the pc ign. module is over $200, Ivans TRE $60, and it will give consistant ign. timing through all gears, as the ecu thinks its in 5th all the time!
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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