stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted January 16, 2007 11:00 AM
quote:
Damn you guys are good.
Props dudes - like whoa, you're awesome! 
Perhaps this oldtimer should give up riding altogether, I'm not worthy, only 15 more years until I can get my bus pass 
I'm probably as old as you but I'm not ready for the bus pass or ABS
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
  
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Hannula
Novice Class
Posts: 57
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posted January 16, 2007 01:01 PM
 Edited By: Hannula on 16 Jan 2007 13:39
I have a ZX14ABS. I must be a mentally disabled, impotent asshole. There are many other reasons to come to this conclusion but this is what really backs it up. Please kill me and then torture me since that's what I deserve. Or at least, make me listen to Mariah Carey's music for 10 minutes, that would make me think. And the worst is yet to come: I'll haul my ass to the USA next week, so take cover now when you can. Next wednesday, it's all too late. I'll pollute the whole east coast with my presence and stink, and the recovery will take a very long time. Longer than any pandemic since Italians started to make electrical things.
Back to off topic:
There's been a few ABS tests in the magazines in recent years and they have shown differences in different bikes' braking distances. But that's not the whole truth, since manufacturers have different emphasis between controllability and braking distance. There's always a trade-off between the variables and controllability is something you can't put in numbers. That's why they won't measure it and give you one-sided results. We've made back-to-back comparisons between two otherwise identical blue 14s (note the color, this can't go wrong). There was no measurable differences in braking distances, but the non-ABS bike went down once during the test (not me). The maximum momentary deceleration rate for the ABS model was -10.7 m/s2 and was accomplished during the very first run (we used a 3D accelerometer and a laptop in my backpack). In the next trial using the rear brake only, the braking distance from 35 mph was 15 ft shorter by hammering the ABS than letting the rear tyre slide.
The german Motorrad magazine compared 10 or so ABS bikes last spring, and the 14 was in the middle of the pack in terms of braking distance. BMWs were the winners and the FJR was the looser. Another test showed that for the first run the braking distance for an ABS bike is very similar to the next ones, but for non-ABS bikes the braking distance tends to get a bit shorter each time when the rider gains some confidence. Pity there's no second try in real life situations, there's an error in the world.
In my mind, the most wonderful thing in the ABS system is how easy and effective it makes your braking drills. You can push the limits and still stay on the safe side. You can do stress-free experiments e.g. in how not to hammer the brakes in the beginning etc. etc. and every time escape the crash. When you practise braking in high speeds, it's easy to find and maintain the maximum braking force around the ABS activation point rather than around the front tyre lock up point. And again, no stress and fear, just one hard piece of braking.
The 14 is my second ABS bike and so will be the 3rd one.
That's all for now. I'm sure this won't convert anyone from their orthodox beliefs already written to the primary rock. My intention was just to practise typing on a laptop.
It's time for a glass of cognac, I'm afraid... take care guys and see you unnoticed in NYC.
P.S. Any tips of stores selling cheap PC3s in NY area are welcomed.
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Mechanic
Novice Class
Posts: 93
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posted January 16, 2007 05:02 PM
Hannula,
Thanks for some quality feedback. I see you Scandinavians obviously study sarcasm at school like we Brits did.
Bring the ZX14ABS over with you and I'll buy it from you 
Thanks for sharing the results from your own testing, and the German magazine. I'd like to see more?
The maximum braking deceleration you measured at 10.7m/s2 is pretty good. With modern tyres and the low C of G I would have expected slightly better, but hey that's still potentially 60mph to 0 in 110 feet.
Anyway welcome to the mentally disabled, impotent asshole club - that's two of us now.
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ABS is like women. It seems very few men understand either!
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted January 16, 2007 08:26 PM
Ya, great ABS thread.
Thanks for the info
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Kountry Kawboy
Expert Class
Posts: 106
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posted January 17, 2007 05:33 AM
+1. Thanks for taking the time to write so eloquently.
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'84 Honda V65 Magna
'87 Kawasaki 1000R
'96 Kawasaki ZX-11
Salivating for a ZX-14
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted January 17, 2007 04:29 PM
quote:
Not afraid.
Not much rain here......and.....I hate getting me wet and the bike dirty.
Plus.....no way to apply power so it's no fun.
Damn.....had to go across town......and I got the wet end of the 30% chance of rain....damn :-)
Flies out makes it an excersice in throttle control......or spin-out.....
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Hannula
Novice Class
Posts: 57
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posted January 18, 2007 05:08 AM
quote:
The maximum braking deceleration you measured at 10.7m/s2 is pretty good. With modern tyres and the low C of G I would have expected slightly better, but hey that's still potentially 60mph to 0 in 110 feet.
I suspect the shots we did with the instruments on weren't as good as they could have been. I made a couple of shots without them and got the rear tyre 10 inches or so up in the air, making me to believe that it was very close to the optimum, and a non-ABS 14 couldn't have been significantly better. However, the airstrip we used had very impressive grip, the rear tyre lifted in continuous rain as well.
It might be a bit different story if there wasn't enough traction for the "lift-off". Letting the front tyre slide a bit more than the ABS system allows could squeeze something out from the braking distance.
One clarification to the earlier posting: When I said there was no measurable difference in the bikes' braking distance in our first trial, the ABS system wasn't allowed to intervene, the braking force was kept on the threshold where the pulsing was about to begin. The second trial using the rear brake only was a full ABS braking with no braking force adjustment by the rider.
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eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
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posted January 18, 2007 07:58 AM
now i want to hear the non abs guys side against the facts...
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Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted January 18, 2007 08:24 AM
i am not against abs but it would not stop me from buying a bike without abs. i have riding bikes for 40 years, never had abs and still alive and well and no broken bone or road rash ( thank the lord). that should answer your question.
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted January 18, 2007 05:25 PM
quote:
i am not against abs but it would not stop me from buying a bike without abs. i have riding bikes for 40 years, never had abs and still alive and well and no broken bone or road rash ( thank the lord). that should answer your question.
Thanks for sharing that.
When ABS is used on the pro racing circuits simply because it performs better, I'll be the first in line for a bike equipped with them. Until then I still feel ABS is better off on the BMW (cruisers), Goldwing and the Kawi Concourse. Please lets allow the superbikes be superbikes. If the ZX14 had have been offered in an ANS only model, they'd have sold one less (mine).
ABS does match tall windscreens, bling, and full compliments of luggage quite well though if thats what you're into
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Mechanic
Novice Class
Posts: 93
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posted January 18, 2007 06:07 PM
quote:
quote:
.....If the ZX14 had have been offered in an ABS only model, they'd have sold one less (mine)...
This thread seems to get a little confused between disagreements about it's value, and personal preference.
Wanting or not wanting is a totally understandable concept, but some of the arguments - unsupported - are that it's a waste of time and good riders don't need it.
All that aside, I fail to see why you say you wouldn't buy a bike if it was only available with ABS. Don't you understand that if you really are supremely competent at braking, you'd never know it was there, and your braking distances wouldn't be compromised.
Or is it just that the extra cost for something you don't want would make you look elsewhere?
Will you and any others answer this for me, I'm genuinely trying to understand and separate the myth from the reality. - What exactly is it that you think ABS does that would detract from your riding pleasure?
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ABS is like women. It seems very few men understand either!
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted January 18, 2007 08:08 PM
quote:
Will you and any others answer this for me, I'm genuinely trying to understand and separate the myth from the reality. - What exactly is it that you think ABS does that would detract from your riding pleasure?
Mechanic I'm not busting you for liking ABS or anything either. I personally (and according to Kawi's research obviously most ZX14 buyers in the USA beacuse they didn't even offer it as an option here) will not own it on an open-class superbike with ABS.
I don't like ABS because it adds weight, cost (for minimal return for an experienced rider according to tests), taxes the electrical system, offers another failure point on the bike, offers one more thing to be checked/serviced on the bike, and a few more reasons I as a consumer shy away from it.
Have you ever wondered why 99% of the sportbike models sold are not ABS eaquipped?
And the sportbikes that do have them (BMW Duc, etc) are the bikes that when compared to Jap bikes lack in most performance categories (including stopping distance for many).
Again, I wouldn't have bought my ZX14 if it was offered ABS only, and if it was an option I'd have elected not to have it.
And ya, I'm probably wrong on all counts, but maybe not "100% wrong" since the top performing bikes of the world don't even offer ABS as an option.
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
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posted January 18, 2007 10:43 PM
To Eclipse636 and to Mechanic....
You seem to be placing anyone that has posted anything 'not positive' about the ABS, you throw us all the way to another corner.
I may not have been able to get my point across in a manner that you understand... I am saying that ABS systems are not better just because they are ABS. If the ABS system is a good system, that has been tried and tested... (which someone on here says was done by himself in a cotrolled test) and it has more than just the one positive of "not locking up" then there is no concern or argument. I would buy a BMW with ABS based upon the years it has been in service, and the feedback that it receives. That being said, I don't feel that every bike out there that has ABS is better braking than one that does not. I will agree that one without ABS is not necesarily better than one with ABS.
Again, my experience with ABS is specific to cars and trucks. I have had problems with brake fade with the ABS that I have used... as well as a pulsing that drives me nuts. I also have been driven nuts by the sudden on/off of the anti lock. I don't think that anyone will disagree that most of the braking done on a bike is done by feel. It is a natural thing that you don't really think about... but even at highter speeds your foot and hand apply or release pressure based upon the feedback from the bike. Now on a bike, if you are riding on a highway and you need to apply heavy brakes with no mental thought process, ABS is going to be the cat's meow. If you are in rain and you need to apply heavy brakes... or hit an oil patch... it is still the answer... Now, for the riding around town, and twistie roads, if you have a braking system that won't allow a lock up, but it fades, and or pulses... this will not only make riding unpredictable but it will make it hard to get a feel for the braking at all.
IF the 14 ABS has been tested for ALL braking situations and it has few, or no deficits.. than I have no problem with it. If it has weird reactions and the only real positive is not locking up in "panic" situations... I personaly don't want it. I am not, nor have I bashed it, or those that want it. I was reacting to the discussion with my opinion just as input for someone to use, or not use. I will definately try out the 14 when it arrives with the ABS to see how it is... and if it is better than what I expect for the early version... I will get it! But please... don't think that if I don't get it, that I am uninformed, or unaware. It will be because of any negative that I may have found. Eventually I would imagine we will have traction control and brake contol.. and throttle control. As time moves on, we are getting more and more.. and less and less. I am prepared to move with the times... unless I am expected to be a lemming walking off a cliff. When I see iit is good. I will get it... If everyone says it is good, and I don't like it... I will not get it. If you feel it is good... get it. Give me some feedback when you ride it so I have more information to use. As for you Hannula... thanks for the info... and it was good input... however, your pompous, sarcastic overtones, (humerous as they were) seemed to dicredit your motives. I take it through your 'writings', that anyone that didn't "convert" was just too narrow minded... or (caught up in our orthodox views written to the primary rock) Maybe someday I will be as open minded as you?? Maybe I will see the light?? That is what my wife said as I hit her over the head with my club and dragged her into the cave...
Lastly... I think that Blitzkrieg had some good insight also, and that is that we need to remember that ABS and airbags, and any other advancement , does not take away the fact that we need to continue to ride within our limits... and keep ourselves out of harms way as much as possible. That is more important than any other safety feature we may get. Ride safe and enjoy yourselves... but realize that ABS will just be another tool that offers assistance... not an answer. Take care!!
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted January 19, 2007 02:43 PM
quote:
quote:
Will you and any others answer this for me, I'm genuinely trying to understand and separate the myth from the reality. - What exactly is it that you think ABS does that would detract from your riding pleasure?
Mechanic I'm not busting you for liking ABS or anything either. I personally (and according to Kawi's research obviously most ZX14 buyers in the USA beacuse they didn't even offer it as an option here) will not own it on an open-class superbike with ABS.
I don't like ABS because it adds weight, cost (for minimal return for an experienced rider according to tests), taxes the electrical system, offers another failure point on the bike, offers one more thing to be checked/serviced on the bike, and a few more reasons I as a consumer shy away from it.
Have you ever wondered why 99% of the sportbike models sold are not ABS eaquipped?
And the sportbikes that do have them (BMW Duc, etc) are the bikes that when compared to Jap bikes lack in most performance categories (including stopping distance for many).
Again, I wouldn't have bought my ZX14 if it was offered ABS only, and if it was an option I'd have elected not to have it.
And ya, I'm probably wrong on all counts, but maybe not "100% wrong" since the top performing bikes of the world don't even offer ABS as an option.
+1
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zeexman
Expert Class
Posts: 415
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posted January 19, 2007 07:26 PM
I don't think I have ever used teh back brake. It is useless on this bike.
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted January 20, 2007 06:12 PM
quote:
 ABS
I got stomped on about my ABS views so I posted up what i don't like about them - but again, when I'm into luggage, bling, and senior citizen discounts I'll be the first in line for an ABS equipped bike.
Until then I'm buying performance!
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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nightmare
Pro
ACP Racing
Posts: 1797
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posted January 21, 2007 08:46 PM
Rookies! Great intertainment 
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2006 ZX14 Ninja "SWINE FLU"
60ft 1.23
8th Mile 5.16
ACP Racing
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Mechanic
Novice Class
Posts: 93
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posted February 09, 2007 11:07 PM
quote:
Until then I'm buying performance!
You don't have to sacrifice it.
If anyone's interested, a couple of comparative brake test reports:
This one from 1992 when systems were less sophisticated.
http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html
And this from 2006:
http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-Green-ComparisonofStoppingDistance.pdf
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted February 10, 2007 07:12 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 10 Feb 2007 07:14
quote:
an open-class superbike with ABS.
OMG that's funny!! Did you really think that you were buying an "open class superbike" when you bought your ZX-14?? That's rich! Please let me know when you see the ZX-14 on a race track (not a drag strip) in a competition event.
Some of you guys are forgetting that there are a lot of people in the ZX-14 demographic that will be using this bike as a sport *touring* bike, and ABS brakes are quite popular in that crowd that BMW, Honda, and Yamaha are quite familiar with. Unfortunately for Kawi, they haven't had a competent sport-touring bike for many years, and their next true sport touring bike will most definitely be offered with ABS.
The ZX-14 fits directly in-between the super sport and sport touring markets, so it's completely understandable that many customers or potential customers would like to see it offered with ABS. This bike will *never* be a track bike, and it's not a "canyon carver" so those of you that purchased it for that purpose and can't understand why anyone would ever want ABS on it, need to back up and re-evaluate which bike you purchased, and for what purpose. If you wanted a track bike or canyon carver, there are LOTS of options for you, and none of them are offered with ABS.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted February 10, 2007 02:34 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 10 Feb 2007 14:36
quote:
quote:
Big fucking deal...ABS, a totally useless feature...learn how to brake. Screw ABS. Maybe the Europeans just can't ride.
I'd like to see you panic brake when a car pulls into your lane.
Like wearing full leathers in 100degree summer heat for a 5 minute ride,, ABS seems like a useless feature until you really need it. From my experience, it only spoils the ride when you're riding the bike like a superbike on a race-track (not drag strip)
Everywhere else, it gives a good peace of mind, especially when riding in the wet or over slippery surfaces.
False sense of security and if thats the best you can do, you'll find yourself very fucked when that car crosses your line...anyway, like I said to Mech...learn how to brake.
BTW, Panic braking is exactly what you do when that happens, otherwise, it wouldn't be referred to as "Panic braking" and If you think that ABS will save your butt when that happens, you need to go back to riding school. ABS is only a tool and not a substitute for poor braking technique or sleepy drivers. It's more marketing than anything else. Statistically, it hasn't proven to be any more effective in cars than those not ABS equipped. Do the research. Proper braking technique and lots of practice can get you stopped faster than ABS all the time, unless you're riding in snow or on ice, in which case yer fucked and stupid anyway and that's a fact Jack.
Matt, I still don't want ABS on mine. 
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FYYFF!!!
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