zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted June 13, 2006 03:56 AM
A Little More on the lack of power below 5K
I find myself having the most fun on the bike the first couple minutes after I start it and its still cold. You know, when it the secondary throttle valves open at low rpm. Everyone knows by know that it really pulls. Anyway something I noticed this morning on my way home from work was, that, at say 30 to oh 70 percent throttle its still pretty sluggish, but once you roll on full throttle ( this is in 6th gear by the way) I could feel it really pick up.
I mean it seemed like the secondaries opened right up. This was around oh 3500-4000 revs or so. It wasn't a drastic increase but definately noticeable. I never noticed before, because I dont think I had ever full rolled the throttle on in top gear before. It pulls pretty good, but my 1270 would still drag its ass at the moment. (fFor now at least)....
  
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EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
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posted June 13, 2006 04:06 AM
Remove the secondary plates----you will not belive the differance. Then drop a tooth in the front and then compare the bikes again.
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Hannula
Novice Class
Posts: 57
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posted June 13, 2006 04:33 AM
errr.. what's the point? The power is not limited on 5th and 6th.
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Mano 2
Expert Class
Posts: 360
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posted June 13, 2006 05:03 AM
Then buy a Speedo Healer
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 13, 2006 05:03 AM
 Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 13 Jun 2006 06:09
Incorrect, it is limited under 5K...again, once you do it, you'll see the diff...for reference, the Dyno charts that have been posted are usually done in 5th and 6th...and that dip is very much there...facts are facts...once you remove the plates and re-run the Dyno, the dip will reverse itself...in any case, I've now done at least 400 miles now with them removed and 2400 miles with them on. There's absolutely no question about it...there's a huge difference in the high gear roll on's at 4K and up and there is more room to go yet...simple map/timing adjustment will bring more throttle response and power at the low end...I'm 100% sure of it.
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FYYFF!!!
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stan55
Expert Class
Posts: 112
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posted June 13, 2006 06:43 AM
Fastestbusaaround,
Dyno are done in 4 gear for tuning.... They to 5, 6th gear roll on's for the high speed run.
Stan
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EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
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posted June 13, 2006 08:41 AM
Whatever-----but I can only agree with FBA----the differance is amazing with no bad side effects. In the real world of riding removing the secondarys makes this thing feel like an entirely differant bike. Low end is better than anything I have had. In fact, at small throttle openings at low speed the bike is smoother.
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted June 13, 2006 09:30 AM
If possible, would it be worth it for the non believers to remove 2 of them?
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted June 13, 2006 09:58 AM
Edited By: shawnski on 13 Jun 2006 12:26
quote:
If possible, would it be worth it for the non believers to remove 2 of them?
my question is are you losing any power or torque above 5000 rpm at any GEARS after you remove the valves compare to stock? if not, i am going to take the valves off myself. can a expert respond to this.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 13, 2006 12:04 PM
No, only gains all over the band, no losses..I assure you. As far as removing only 2...LOL....talk about fucking up a bike good....HAVABUSA12r, that just won't fly, but you're welcome to try...so if you do that, expect that your cylinders will all be doing different things at the same time....LOL
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FYYFF!!!
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted June 13, 2006 01:32 PM
well, that is great news. i wonder which cylinder will come out first 
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200mphclub
Novice Class
Posts: 37
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posted June 13, 2006 01:51 PM
FBA- Please clarify (as far as removing only 2) are you talking about the plated for the secondaries?? I thought I made sure I read and understood that the 2 secondary plates are removed for this mod, am I missunderstanding?? Thanks.
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted June 13, 2006 01:53 PM
Edited By: shawnski on 13 Jun 2006 14:54
i am lost guys 
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 13, 2006 03:20 PM
200MPH....here goes --
There are 4 intakes (Velocity stacks) -- one per cylinder...each intake has a primary (bottom) butterfly and a top (secondary) butterfly. The primary butterfly is also known around here as the throttle plate (sub throttle is the secondary butterfly) ...now, if you lift the tank and open remove the intake access panels under it, you'll see the 4 intakes and the secondary throttle plates in front of you. Once you turn the key to on, the 4 secondary throttle plates will do a 120 degree open and close -- the FI self check does that. All 4 plates are on the same rod/(stepped motor). When that happens, they will expose the primary throttle plates underneath them, further down in the intake tubes (also known as Velocity stacks). You can remove the secondary throttle plates; they are controlled by the ECU whereas the primary ones are controlled by the throttle itself. If you only remove 2 of the 4, you're cruisin for a brusin....so that's not an option. If you see the whole setup, you'll understand why you can't remove 2 of the 4. I'm now looking to see if my 10R works the same way...benefits would be huge if it did...
The bikes will need a timing adjustment after the throttle plate removal...not dangerous if you don't do it, but gains would be quite perceptible IMHO. Changing the velocity stack to longer ones would cut some top-end power but would also yield more low end torque...popular mod on the Busa's...there you have it! 
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FYYFF!!!
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CrazyKenny
Novice Class
Posts: 41
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posted June 13, 2006 04:36 PM
fastestbusaaround,
I can't help but ask you how big of a pain in the ass is it to remove the secondaries from the bike? How do you access the injectors? please elaborate on the steps if you would be so kind. Thanks in advance. CrazyKenny.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 13, 2006 04:57 PM
1) Lift gas tank and prop it up
2) Remove intake access plates (2 of them -- large metal plates -- very visible) and unplug the sensor on the left plate
3) Now you are looking at the secondary (sub throttle) plates inside the black intake tubes.
4) Use a philips screwdriver and press hard to release the screws on each plate (2 per plate -- 4 plates)
5) Get a magnetic screw pickup in case the screws drop in the airbox, easier to get them out that way...
6) DO NOT turn the throttle at anytime and don't turn the key on as the plates will open and close and if you have a loose screw, you don't want it to land in the intakes.
The screws are held in by loctite blue...so make sure that you have the correct screwdriver and you put your fist into it to loosen them. Once the screws are out, lift the plates out and put them away 4ever! Don't strip the screws when pulling them out; they are very tight...whole job took less than an hour and you don't need to acess the injectors either. If you are ok with tools, you should have no issue with this...just be careful...don't have the screws falling into the intake now...last thing, put it back together and RIDE!!! You'll freeeeek!
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FYYFF!!!
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CrazyKenny
Novice Class
Posts: 41
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posted June 13, 2006 05:02 PM
Going to do it right now! Thanks man!
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 13, 2006 05:10 PM
Im here if you need me...send me an IM or a PM if you need help.
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FYYFF!!!
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14black
Expert Class
Posts: 280
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posted June 13, 2006 06:06 PM
I would think heating the screws would help removal...Is a heat gun a dangerous proposition in this case???
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swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted June 13, 2006 07:20 PM
quote:
I would think heating the screws would help removal...Is a heat gun a dangerous proposition in this case???
Use a soldering iron if you must heat the screws, it's much safer... mine came out without any heat, 1/4" ratchet, extension, 1/4" socket, the right bit for the screw size, leverage on the ratchet and they came out with no problem, abouit a 45 min. to 1 hour job start to finish.
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2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted June 13, 2006 07:25 PM
FBA There is a significant difference in power between 4th & 6th. Check this thread I posted some dyno results from sunday.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=24329&set_time=
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted June 13, 2006 07:28 PM
The ecm opens the secondaries under 5k in 5th & 6th. there is no resriction.
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CrazyKenny
Novice Class
Posts: 41
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posted June 13, 2006 07:45 PM
I Just got done. It's to late to ride would wake kiddies with Muzzy but you wern't kidding about those screws being in there, I had to put my fist and elbow in it. plates pushed open a couple of times would probly take recomendation of soldering iron next time. Can't wait till tomorrow, Thanks again!!!
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200mphclub
Novice Class
Posts: 37
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posted June 13, 2006 10:34 PM
to late?? I just finished the plates and its 1am. geared up and holy crap!! Just as I was getting used to the power now im all freaked out again. Things go by to quick to fast, my brain cant think as fast as the bike accelerates. It is a bad machine.
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted June 13, 2006 11:59 PM
Edited By: ZXLNT on 14 Jun 2006 02:47
I'm gonna wait until I get the power commander installed and tweak the map with the stock exhaust and see what happens. I bet there is 3-4 more horsepower above 8K, it runs real rich from there to redline.
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