k bryant
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posted June 07, 2006 08:51 AM
quote:
I just read many articles on STD vs SAE.. SAE is calibrated at 77 degrees F. Whereas STD is calibrated at 60 degeees F. Does your bike run better in colder weather? usually yes. In general STD reads 1.044 or 4.4% higher than SAE. STD is usually used in the performance industries, Brock Racing, Muzzy, Stillen Performance etc. STD and SAE are identical except that STD ASSUMES that the bike is running in better air..
Does my bike run exceptionally better in the cold air and more sluggish in the day or heat yes. So in this way I think both correction factors are important. If you have an SAE dyno reading just multiply by 1.044 and you get std..
Actually, I would say more of us test at SAE. STD does indeed read higher, as does if the "Smoothing" factor is set lower. Most at SAE set it at 3. Many who test at STD set it at 5. Regardless, it is simply important to do your testing at the same base settings and remember that the dyno is just one part of tuning. Whether it be lap times or E.T.s, the dyno doesn't guarentee you'll win anything but a dyno shoot-out. 
For example, I dyno'd a 14 yesterday -
SAE - Smoothing 3 - 166.79 hp, 102.60 tq
STD - Smoothing 3 - 170.55 hp, 103.36 tq
   
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D
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posted June 07, 2006 09:45 AM
Thinking outside the box a lil here...
Wouldn't having a resistor inline with the temp sensor be more effective than tricking the gear indicator anyways? Didn't some of you guys report great power when cold? The sub-throttle plates would be closed to aid cold start/idle anyway so wouldn't it make sense to trick the computer into thinkin the bike was cold (Busa guys relocate their airbox temp sensors and I seem to remember we did some things to the 12 for similair reasons)? Maybe the cold start/run "map" is adding even more fuel when the sub-throttle plates are removed because it senses so much more air flow (combined with advanced timing to aid in warm-up)?
Dunno - just a coupla thoughts.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 09:49 AM
Not sure about this but, the ZX14 does run on a CANbus network (that I am sure of), which would indicate to me that the possibility of the temp /pressure etc..sensors run on data and not voltage...if that is the case and I'm not saying that it is, the resistor would just throw codes through the ECU and malfunction
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dubious
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posted June 07, 2006 10:31 AM
 Edited By: dubious on 7 Jun 2006 12:20
Not all benefits are always shown on the dyno!
Years ago when racing mx, I installed the GYTR long rod kit-(longer connecting rod, cylinder spacer, and shorter piston from pin to crown) in the bike , and it only showed about 1-2 HP increase.... but on the track, due to the extended dwell time for piston at TDC, and BDC,( 2 stroke ...so better combustion at TDC , and more complete exh, and intake charge at BDC) the increased pull and throttle response is phenominal. I t felt like 7 HP, and on a 220 lb bike that makes 44RWHP hp to begin with that was a huge difference!
The same feeling you would get from 20 hp gain on a 170 HP zx14!
None of these dyno's have shown elapsed times from beginning of pull to redline and thats "probably" the biggest difference .... it revs quicker, and has more snap.
Besides the fact the throttle plates are affected by gear position, so if they are tuned to be open , or almost open in higher gears, then the results would be less substantial than the differences seen in lower gears!
Compare Dyno's in 3rd gear and probably see a dramatic difference.
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matt sterbator
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posted June 07, 2006 10:35 AM
quote:
Don't remove the throttle plates says IVAN
Says the guy who charges folks $110 for $5 in parts from Radio Shack 
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tuusinii
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posted June 07, 2006 11:51 AM
Somebody with dyno time:
Do dyno runs with all 6 gears and on different throttle position say like 5-10-15-20-30-40-50-80-100%. That should straight a lot of things about this softness. And then all this without the secondarys. And on top of that the A/F ratio and we have all we need to deside if this is a good mod.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 11:56 AM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 7 Jun 2006 12:58
quote:
Not all benefits are always shown on the dyno!
Years ago when racing mx, I installed the GYTR long rod kit-(longer connecting rod, cylinder spacer, and shorter piston from pin to crown) in the bike , and it only showed about 1-2 HP increase.... but on the track, due to the extended dwell time for piston at TDC, and BDC,( 2 stroke ...so better combustion at TDC , and more complete exh, and intake charge at BDC) the increased pull and throttle response is phenominal. I t felt like 7 HP, and on a 220 lb bike that makes 44RWHP hp to begin with that was a huge difference!
The same feeling you would get from 20 hp gain on a 170 HP zx14!
None of these dyno's have shown elapsed times from beginning of pull to redline and thats "probably" the biggest difference .... it revs quicker, and has more snap.
Besides the fact the throttle plates are affected by gear position, so if they are tuned to be open , or almost open in higher gears, then the results would be less substantial than the differences seen in lower gears!
Compare Dyno's in 3rd gear and probably see a dramatic difference.
The higher gears produce less substantial results...yes, but there are some perceptible gains, however the huge low end TQ more than makes up for the smaller high end gains...also, WOT with the plates on is still not fully open (as with plates off)...at 130 mph, there probably are no gains...but at 100, there are. Then, just some long velocity stacks for 1500 rpm wheelies in 1st...LOL 
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ZXLNT
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posted June 07, 2006 12:32 PM
quote:
Not sure about this but, the ZX14 does run on a CANbus network (that I am sure of), which would indicate to me that the possibility of the temp /pressure etc..sensors run on data and not voltage...if that is the case and I'm not saying that it is, the resistor would just throw codes through the ECU and malfunction
Voltage IIS a form of data. If you mean they relay information to the CANbus network and ECU as digital information, I doubt it, they are still analog sensors..... Any conversion would be done by the ECU itself, not the sensor..
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 01:17 PM
Perhaps, though the down sensor is digital...and you can't bypass it easily through electronics. Been there done that...
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blueford
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posted June 07, 2006 01:34 PM
quote:
What an idiot;. he conviniently left out the TQ curve with plates removed...I can tell you that the man is a moron.
1) There is NO hesitation with the plates removed
2) There is a TON of instant, GUT-WRENCHING POWER with the plates removed
He's only trying to sell his snake oil, hair tonic TR-JUNK. I'm not selling anything and have nothing to gain by telling you all the way it really is. Oh and BTW, where's the A/F curve he knew we were looking for?
Also, he starts the TRE test at 2K and the throttle plates removed test at 3K...with the missing TQ curve...what a rat bastard this guy is...one of us will put it on the Dyno and then post the more than HUGE TQ gain.
If I was ever to buy anything from him, now I certainly never will...GTR knows exactly what I mean, he no doubt saw the same thing I did when the throttle plates were removed...I don't need some snake oil salesman's dyno to feel that power.  
Good call FBA, kick that mothfucker good there's nothing worse than bullshit flying all over the place and people just standing there with their mouths open.
Glad to see you doge shit well and at least you get away with hammering their asses, keep up the good work
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ZXLNT
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posted June 07, 2006 01:52 PM
quote:
Perhaps, though the down sensor is digital...and you can't bypass it easily through electronics. Been there done that...
It is? I thought it was a U shaped hoop with a conductive ring that slides on it and shorts when the bike falls over... Or it conducts when in upright positions and opens when the bike falls over..
At least thats how they used to be...
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14black
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posted June 07, 2006 01:55 PM
Don't know if this has been posted here, but Ivan put a new response in this thread...
http://www.zx14ninja.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=883
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14black
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posted June 07, 2006 01:58 PM
quote:
Not all benefits are always shown on the dyno!
Years ago when racing mx, I installed the GYTR long rod kit-(longer connecting rod, cylinder spacer, and shorter piston from pin to crown) in the bike , and it only showed about 1-2 HP increase.... but on the track, due to the extended dwell time for piston at TDC, and BDC,( 2 stroke ...so better combustion at TDC , and more complete exh, and intake charge at BDC) the increased pull and throttle response is phenominal. I t felt like 7 HP, and on a 220 lb bike that makes 44RWHP hp to begin with that was a huge difference!
The same feeling you would get from 20 hp gain on a 170 HP zx14!
None of these dyno's have shown elapsed times from beginning of pull to redline and thats "probably" the biggest difference .... it revs quicker, and has more snap.
Besides the fact the throttle plates are affected by gear position, so if they are tuned to be open , or almost open in higher gears, then the results would be less substantial than the differences seen in lower gears!
Compare Dyno's in 3rd gear and probably see a dramatic difference.
Agreed! Excellent post...
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 02:48 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 7 Jun 2006 15:48
quote:
Don't know if this has been posted here, but Ivan put a new response in this thread...
http://www.zx14ninja.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=883
I just finished reaming Ivan the snakeoil salesman on that site...
Here's my take on him...
http://www.zx14ninja.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=883
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FasterThanStink
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posted June 07, 2006 02:49 PM
See Ivan spew his snakeoil TRE here.
http://www.zx14ninja.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=883
As for TRE opinions see this thread.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=24115&set_time=
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suddenly becoming stationary...
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FasterThanStink
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posted June 07, 2006 02:50 PM
All great minds think alike!
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Speed has never killed anyone,
suddenly becoming stationary...
That's what gets you.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 02:51 PM
FTS...you read my post there on that dickhead?
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FasterThanStink
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posted June 07, 2006 02:54 PM
Yup. Good job! 
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Speed has never killed anyone,
suddenly becoming stationary...
That's what gets you.
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zerMATT
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posted June 07, 2006 06:36 PM
I couldn't resist a post over there... that guy is a joke!
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 07:42 PM
I'm going to check it out now Matt...
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QWICKR
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posted June 07, 2006 07:55 PM
You guys are like big brothers, keeping our neighborhood safe and free of creeps, thanks.
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YES... Her ZX-14 !!!
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 08:00 PM
I just noticed his charts again...he shows MPH on the ones he did yesterday and RPM on the ones he did a few weeks ago...I had originally thought it was RPM in both cases, so now I've really got to wonder if he knows anything at all about bikes and performance...   
GTR, feel free to berate this cocksucker at will with me...you didn't happen to notice a power loss down low with the sub's removed did ya? ROFLMFAO!
Oh and the reason we don't see the HUGE dip in power at 3-4K? Because it's reflected mostly on the TQ curve in all cases, not the HP curve as can be clearly seen on the charts...so...where in the FUCK is that TQ curve on his latest runs where he claims the TRE beats the sub plate removal?
TRE=POS=
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sands
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posted June 07, 2006 08:52 PM
Looks like the plate removal shows a nice gain on the third dyno chart compared to stock...
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 09:03 PM
Sands, his charts don't tell 10% of the story, trust me on this...I would venture an educated guess that instead of 60 LBS (STD) RWTQ at 3.5K, I am seeing about 85 (SAE) now...my Busa pulled that easily with a pipe and I have many Dyno runs to prove that, so if anything it was lower than stock at 3.5K due to the pipe. The 14 pulls harder at 3.5K with the subs removed than the Busa ever did. Add mapping to the 14 and you figure about another 3-5 lbs RWTQ, easily...no reason I can see why you couldn't get close to 90LBS of RWTQ at 3.5-4K properly tuned. The TQ curve now is much fatter and flatter than what you are seeing on his runs...and that's why he didn't show them.
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stan55
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posted June 08, 2006 02:53 AM
Fastestbusa,
You are beating this up!
IVAN said
"There is an advantage as compared to bone stock at low rpm, but the bike actually lost a couple on the top.
This may be due to turbulence or maybe can be brought back with a little bit of added fuel
I re-installed the plates, as there is no advantage to removing them at this time.
Ivan"
He does not have a powercommander on hand to see if he added more fuel to try to fix the problem down past 3000k... And plus he is just saying at this time there are no advantages to removing the files till you add more fuel to them.... That's what I got of his post.
Stan
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