trenace
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posted September 19, 2005 06:02 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 19 Sep 2005 19:04
quote:
dude... here's what he asked...
quote:
What do you think about it, how do you feel about the 14? .........what's your gut-level reaction?
Seems pretty straight forward to me...
I'll answer his question after you have.
So Fish you are genuinely unaware that I have already posted my reactions and feelings on the 14 at considerable length and detail and in quite many posts?
Answer that and then I'll waste everyone's time with the numerous links to the numerous posts already having all that, the posts that he and everyone else (except, you seem to be implying, yourself) was already aware of.
  
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fish_antlers
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posted September 19, 2005 06:12 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 19 Sep 2005 19:13
tap tap tap *waiting* sheesh.. why should tinhead (and anyone else for that matter) have to chase you around this site to try to find the thread that has "your opinion"? Why not just cut and paste it here so that the thread can move along...
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trenace
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posted September 19, 2005 06:13 PM
Edited By: trenace on 19 Sep 2005 19:20
So you are genuinely unaware that I have already posted my reactions and feelings on the 14 at considerable length and detail and in quite many posts?
Tap-tap-tap yourself.
Much faster for you to answer that than for me to provide 10, 20, or however many posts there already are, and everyone already knows there are (except, you are implying or thus far refusing to answer, yourself.)
And if you are aware of it, then there is no need for me to repost what I have already written at length. It was already out there and everyone knew that. It was purely bogus for anyone to pretend it was not, or to fish (no pun intended) with trolling questions saying I had never done so.
I've probably posted MORE of that than anybody, actually, so you're being ridiculous and so was Tinhead. Of course I have already posted that. And anyone who has read much of the 14 side of the board at all, pretty much any thread in it, has seen it.
So, are you genuinely unaware of it?
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fish_antlers
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posted September 19, 2005 06:19 PM
why should tinhead (and anyone else for that matter) have to chase you around this site to try to find the thread that has "your opinion"? Why not just cut and paste it (your answer) here so that the thread can move along...
by your own definitions YOU'RE the troll  LOL !
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fish_antlers
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posted September 19, 2005 06:20 PM
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=19222&set_time=1127182834
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trenace
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posted September 19, 2005 06:24 PM
Edited By: trenace on 19 Sep 2005 19:30
I notice you refuse to answer.
Of course it would be embarrassing to do so... to admit that you're perfectly aware that I've already posted a ton on that, would justify completely what I have said.
You see, your question, is already answered and you know it is. My opinions on the 14 are out there already. And it's considerable work to go find the full set or a large set and post them. Whereas it's trivial for you to post "Yes" or "No" whether you already know that, as anyone who has read any signficant section of the 14 threads does know.
It's simple enough Fish: you know (but refuse to say), everyone knows, and Tinhead had to know (he presented himself as knowing what I had and had not posted), that I had already posted this. It was bullshit trolling pretending that I had not and fishing for me to do so again.
Either you answer, or that ends my replies to you on it as well. I think your behavior on this is ridiculous. Congrats for defending trolling, for refusing to answer yes or no, for playing a game when you know that I have already posted these opinions and at length.
Just absurd. As is your assertion that now I am being the troll. No, there's not a single aspect in which I am doing so, but you are, at the very least, creating a theater of the absurd in your attempted defense of Tinhead, belaboring beyond even his own efforts his absurd pretense that I'd never posted an opinion or feeling on the 14.
So are you genuinely unaware that I have already posted my opinions on the 14?
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aughtsix
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posted September 19, 2005 06:34 PM
quote:
dude... here's what he asked...
quote:
What do you think about it, how do you feel about the 14? .........what's your gut-level reaction?
I'll answer that one from my point of view.
My gut-level reaction? It's threefold:
Firstly, disgust. Despite ENORMOUS opportunity, Kawasaki didn't listen. Doesn't even appear they cared to.
Secondly, anger. I want to stomp something until it looks like dirt.
Thirdly, hope. I'm still holding out hope for the 14, probably stemming from the fact that I wasn't played with much as a child...
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fish_antlers
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posted September 19, 2005 06:53 PM
tren.... are you thick er something? I never denied that you have not posted tons of info regarding yer opinions of the bike.... what I SAID WAS: why should tinhead (and anyone else for that matter) have to chase you around this site to try to find the thread that has "your opinion"?
So we not play nice and simply cut and paste some of those voulmes of opinion you have here in this topic so that tinhead might be able to read you answer to his question?
sheesh 
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ninja12
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posted September 19, 2005 07:05 PM
I know how to fix it.
I WISH THEY WOULD NOT CALL IT A ZX!
It is a perfect zzr but not a zx.
The big ninja deserve a better dealth than that.
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238mph
Pro
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posted September 19, 2005 07:35 PM
quote:
I know how to fix it.
I WISH THEY WOULD NOT CALL IT A ZX!
It is a perfect zzr but not a zx.
The big ninja deserve a better dealth than that.
I agree... let the king die with dignity... but don't call this new commuter bus a ZX!!!!
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ninja12
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posted September 19, 2005 07:55 PM
For the record.
We are judging this book by the cover.
If it turns out to be a wolf in ugly sheep clothes
I'll gladly eat my words.
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trenace
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posted September 19, 2005 08:04 PM
Edited By: trenace on 19 Sep 2005 21:15
The answer, Fish, is when people preface their questions with false and negative assertions, such as insulting people as "Kawpukes," asserting that people have done nothing but parrot Kawasaki's press release, and has engaged in a pattern of trolling, one is not obligated to and is not well-advised to submit to their every whim.
The info of what my opinions are is out there. I am sure he has read them. He stated that he knew what I had said and had not said (while giving false representations of what I posted).
So I don't care to play his game.
I made that plain.
Instead you insist on that game being continued. Why, I can't imagine, no one else including Tinhead is, and he certainly could just go re-read the posts if he wanted.
OK, here you go, here's the damn cut and pastes. Boy this really accomplishes something... NOT. Why you are perpetuating this character's game, when the posts are already out there and easy to find and he's already read 'em, I cannot imagine, but I think it's in the same category as your denying this is a Kawasaki-oriented site as shown by its content, which is mostly Kawsaki... whatever.
In any case, the below shows the complete falseness of having claimed that I never posted an opinion or feeling on the 14, and it's also completely false that I ever posted stuff treating Kawasaki press release as gospel or whatever. Total bullshit, the entire matter was bullshit (or more precisely trolling) and a total waste of time... it took longer for me to post the below than it would have took Tinhead to go re-read them and according to him, he already knew what I had and had no posted anyway. Just absurd -- Fish, next time you ask that I play a troll's game I will not, I will turn you down, this is ridiculous to do. Despite the length, it's not complete, but it should be a good sample, plenty of opinions of what I think is wrong and what may be right with the bike, aspects I like and aspects I don't, as well as overall takes on buying it:
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Anyhow, me likes. If I had unlimited funds I would buy one for sure. Judging from the pics and what I expect from Kawasaki, I prefer it by a considerable margin to the BMW K1200S, most certainly to the Hayabusa, and most certainly to the ZZR-1200. No doubt about any of that.
If I did way more sport touring I would definitely go for it, but as is, the 12 is comfortable enough for me for the durations I ordinarily ride (rarely more or much more than a full tank of gas before getting where I'm going) and will do whatever this can, plus more. That is not knocking the bike: the same is true for the above three bikes as well, and they all are good sellers and/or respected.
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Personally, I'd have wanted a leaner, meaner machine with a stronger motor... in terms of sales and functionality to most buyers I can't disagree with the path chosen however. Appearance-wise, the strakes, the dull or flat black lowers and panel that the strakes are on, and the rearmost part of the lowers (near the rear tire) are all mistakes, I am pretty strongly convinced.
The choice of tail section and seat is going to turn off ZX-12R owners and other Ninja owners. They are functional for a passenger so I understand the reason. ZRX owners and ZZR owners are very happy with the design, it seems. But ZRX's and ZZR's have sold far fewer bikes then Ninja designs have, so the design may appeal to a too-limited sector.
All that said, if the bike breaks 200 with the limiter removed, breaks into the 8's with a professional rider and stock motor, and time proves the bike handles every bit as well as the ZX-12R, then I expect the complainers will become buyers and the bike will be successful despite some needless aesthetic problems (particularly the strakes.
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At the very least, in my opinion, Kawasaki would increase sales by offering no-strakes panels and fender and a without-that-bottom-part tail (thusbecoming much more sportbike-like in appearance) as no-cost options.
And further, they'd almost certainly improve sales and make more money to offer as standard either the outer-4-headlights-only or inner-2-headlights-only; with the "full-insect" look being offered, if at all, as an extra-cost option.
My expectation is that few would choose the six-headlight option, even if it were a free option.
The Kawasaki logo should move to the traditional "gas tank" position where it won't interfere with the overall perceived shape of the bike. Small detail? Yes but significant.
I appreciate it would cost slightly more but the bike would look considerably better with the panel presently having the strakes not only not having the strakes but being painted the same color as the fairing; and also for the lower cowl to be painted the same color as the upper cowl rather than the present flat tone. That cost might be made up on savings on headlights though.
The rearmost part of the fairing lower, back at the rear tire, really should go as well. It's kludgy and not integrated with the rest of the lower cowl or bike. Contrariwise, a hugger would improve the rear appearance, at least if done right.
There's time to fix this bike and fix its sales. It's a real shame for sound engineering to be let down by small but sales-killing problems like these.
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According to MCNEWS.COM.AU, the ZX-14 will come with 190 rear tire.
Perhaps this is a sign that Kawasaki is aiming for sharper handling than y'all have been giving credit for.
And did you spot that rear caliper?
Or those front Nissins, quite a bit lighter than Tokicos?
Maybe there's going to be a surprise on the handling front.
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Seriously, between now and production Kawasaki ought to think SERIOUSLY about getting rid of those two center lights and getting rid of the bottom section of that tail. And the grab bar too. (Have it as an option.)
Plus profile the seat or something.
These are ALL changes that could be done in the time remaining, and could make a hell of a difference to sales, in my personal opinion anyway.
Oh yeah and get rid of the strakes on the side and the fender.
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Wait a sec, wait for wheelbase and weight figures before having coronaries.
I think it is extremely close to being a flat factual statement that that nose is more aerodynamic. The bike may well have considerably lower drag at speed.
The bike's got more power. Not much but some, and it's got a ton more bottom-end. Which is not important in some situations; in others such as salvaging imperfect
launches, making it easier on your clutch to have a perfect launch (less rpm required), still being in the power band to pull you out of a corner if you're accidentally
a gear high, etc. these are all good things -- on top of it also implying way better gas mileage (having low torque at cruising rpm is an indicator of poor mileage
BTW) and good manners in many ordinary riding situations.
You cannot tell from pictures, it may have better suspension.
Downsides, aw it's got strakes. Waaaaaaaah!!!!
And that seat potentially could be a problem, though personally since I don't usually use the "backstop" of a seat, I don't see why I would necessarily slide
on this one either.
Dual exhausts? Welcome to 2006: it's either dual exhausts or one giant motherfucker of a can. You can of course change exhausts.
Bars are high? Hell how many 12R owners are getting the Helis? Including some guys pretty serious on cornering. Maybe Kawasaki listened. So maybe now it's
going to be the reverse, some guys will keep stock and love 'em, and the some will get lower clip-ons. Costs a couple hundred bucks Waaaaaaah.
ZZR-style side panels and tailpiece? Waaaaaaaaah.
All comes down to weight and wheelbase... if it's a bus in wheelbase then the handling oriented guys have got good reason to be displeased. (Though they could buy a
shorter arm like I'm doing for the 12R, about $700.) If it's pretty damn close to the current bike and it is not heavier, or suppose it is actually lighter, or might be
lighter or the same once that dual exhaust is stripped, then what's the beef? More power, more torque, better aeros but it's got a ZZR look? Waaaaaaaaaah! 
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Good fucking news!
...
We now have Kawasaki's studio pics of the 14 however, taken seemingly at the same or virtually the same camera angle as Kawasaki's studio pics of the 12. Both bikes are vertical, and the rims can be seen very plainly.
Scaling the 12 pic so that the outer diameter of the front rims matches between both bikes -- and both should be identical -- the overlays now come out very different than before.
The wheelbase of the 14 appears only a trace longer.
The bars are only a trace higher.
The bikes are almost overlays with each other. This is not the oversized bike that the bodywork also gives the illusion of it being, or at least when there is no sense of scale, as there was not in those pics.
I wish I could post the overlays! They would show very well and I think this time pretty accurately how the bikes compare. However for some damn reason xs.to is refusing to allow me to upload any pics. If I can e-mail them to anyone that can host them, that could be another solution.
It's good news... it's very encouraging when you see the bikes to scale, compared right on top of each other, it proves this new bike is NOT an overgrown, unwieldy deal.
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What color 14 do you like best?
Either black or red, red would depend on becoming all red and without the damn fins... black would be better without the fins too.
On further thought and a little photo 'chopping, to me there's no doubt that, personally,
#1: Way better for the side strakes to go
#2: That panel and the resulting overall look and lines of the bike is way better when it's in glossy black -- for example a glossy black matching the glossy black of the black bike. True whether talking about a black or red bike.
Particularly with the black bike, the lines and shape pull together when that panel is gloss black, don't pull together when not.
#3: Red bike does much better when the upper part of the tail piece stays red, but the lower part switches to glossy black.
#4: The back part of the under fairing (near the rear tire) is horrid and should be got rid of.
#5: Of course different exhaust but that is typical for most bikes, including most did not like the 12's stock exhaust, so big deal there.
All easily fixable by an owner probably, except perhaps for getting rid of the side strakes. Could be a project there, but hard to believe it would be undoable.
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True, one does expect bodywork that's already liked on a new bike.
I'd also hope this won't be street-priced at $14-$15K. Unless the Busa goes up also, it's hard to see that price being commanded. The 12 went out the door besides tax for $10.5K or less, sometimes much less. Hard to see a price increase of more than a few percent being accepted without major drop in sales, and how do you drop below near-nothing?
Sure, the bike probably is better in every way than the K1200S, but it won't attract Bimmer coin, regardless, simply due to "cachet" and what buyers expect to pay.
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Who is trading their 12 in for the 14?
Probably no one will say or think yes unless having more information, like at least hearing about somebody that heard about somebody that rode it, or knowing things like does it weigh 600 lb curb weight or 460 lb... I would not get rid of my present bike for it but I might add it but whether I did would depend on things like how heavy or light it may be, which are unknown.
Could free me up to keep the 12 in a hotter state of tune, keep the race cams in it after Maxton vs switching back to the street cams, for example, have a bike with rubber that will last for a while as well as a bike with stickier but short-lived rubber, something fast but also suitable for longer trips, something that can go 2-up if needed whereas the 12 is being modified where it can't (lighter subframe), etc.
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fish_antlers
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posted September 19, 2005 09:15 PM
was that really that hard ? Just trying to make sure that you act like a biker and not a kawpuke
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trenace
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posted September 19, 2005 09:18 PM
Not hard, but useless!
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fish_antlers
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posted September 19, 2005 09:25 PM
not at all... now Tinhead and others can read what you said, and respond...
voila!
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trenace
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posted September 19, 2005 09:26 PM
OK, but they could have before -- and of course, in fact did!
Anyhow, hopefully that's that and now regular programming can be resumed, thoughts (besides my own, already posted probably too much before and definitely too much now) on the 14!
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entropy
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posted September 19, 2005 11:28 PM
Trenace,
I gotta say, you seem to be one interesting dude. Fanatical attention to motor detail, and fanatical attention to this thread. 
This winter I am planning on towing my heap to Florida. Play a bit at Gainesville with the Florida #10 can of mixed nuts.
Can I buy you a Bud Light? Maybe get a ride on yr new 14????
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trenace
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posted September 19, 2005 11:31 PM
Edited By: trenace on 20 Sep 2005 00:33
Sounds good! Not so sure about a new 14... maybe yes maybe no on that: if I were smarter I'd spend less money than I do and invest more, and I'm trying to get there, that is really the only issue there. I guess it depends on how good things are looking by that time (actually I think the 14 is not expected to arrive with other new models but at least a little time after that.) If not the 14 at least you can see and ride the 12! Should be one of the lightest 12's around by winter! (Actually, I should have all the light parts on well before then.)
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entropy
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posted September 20, 2005 12:14 AM
where in Fla are you???
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trenace
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posted September 20, 2005 12:32 AM
Ocala
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entropy
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posted September 20, 2005 01:03 AM
That'll work!
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trenace
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posted September 20, 2005 01:19 AM
That's good! Gainesville is indeed not far, I can head up there or vice-versa.
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entropy
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posted September 20, 2005 02:13 AM
how far is KC Cadby's shop from you???
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bossman12r
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posted September 20, 2005 06:45 AM
It will be a fast bike.
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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herk
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posted September 20, 2005 06:59 AM
quote:
For the record.
We are judging this book by the cover.
If it turns out to be a wolf in ugly sheep clothes
I'll gladly eat my words.
Maybe, but the gremlin was UGLY and SLOW!!!
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Revenge is the oldest motivation known to man
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