bovinespongiformencephalo
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variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted January 15, 2006 03:26 PM
Tossers. Figures.
  
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k bryant
Needs a job
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posted January 15, 2006 03:27 PM
Going to a single, from an oem dual, it would not completely surprise me to make more power. I couldn't speculate about "5 hp" until I actually put it on the dyno and took a look.
Weight - Hard to say yet. If they are mostly Titanium, it may be a mute point. The R1 dual mufflers only weigh 4 lbs each. So 8 pounds total isn't too bad for an oem muffler(s).
In most cases - overall tuned length/diameters have more to do with "robbing" power than a "90 degree" bend would. If we're building full race engines, yes, we do want to keep as straight a line as possible. Both are priorities to address when designing exhaust systems. But there are many other issues we address and/or consider when designing. So let's just say you both are right.
AMA has no restriction on if the exhaust has to be same as OEM "style" (ie; dual or single).
Aerodynamic advantage is a debate that can't be won. Yes and No. Just look at the current stable of Superbikes & Motogp. Think more about weight being at such a high point, issues of heat, long tuned length, overall routing.
3 seconds a lap is an absolute ton. Same riders, same track conditions, same tires as the '05 model? Hard to believe.
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trenace
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posted January 15, 2006 03:35 PM
Well, to some extent there likely is an effect to optimizing to the track. The '05 was presumably not optimized to Autopolis, indeed possibly had never been on it, whereas the '06 had much of its development there. On a quite different track, where neither bike was optimized or for whatever reason the traits of the '05 were more favorable or the disadvantages less important, the gap might be much less.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted January 15, 2006 05:57 PM
thanks for explaining that, KB!
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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zeta xray
Expert Class
Posts: 416
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posted January 15, 2006 05:57 PM
I think at the press introduction that Kawasaki was reported to have said that the '06 was 2 seconds a lap faster at the Autopolis track. But no difinitive information was given about what tires were used and on which bike. And the lack or presence of a steering damper may account for some of that.
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fish_antlers
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posted January 15, 2006 06:42 PM
if that's true then 2 seconds is a lot!
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trenace
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posted January 15, 2006 07:36 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 15 Jan 2006 19:37
At the newsstand just now I also saw, in Motorcyclist, that 2 seconds per lap was the figure claimed by Kawasaki.
There was also, previously in another source, a 3 second figure somewhere. It's possible that was compared to the Fireblade and never to the previous ZX-10R -- I'm not sure.
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beansbaxter
Needs a life
Posts: 5911
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posted January 15, 2006 11:15 PM
fish - when u mess with the exhaust setup, how hard does it appear it would be to fabricate something to hold the rear brake reservoir?
if u do, as that has been mentioned, and put on an exhaust from an 04/05, can the same rear reservoir setup be used?
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mdzx10r
Novice Class
Posts: 50
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posted January 16, 2006 03:09 AM
my 04 weighed in at 430 full wet, after i put on a slip on.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
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posted January 16, 2006 08:45 AM
beans... I dont own the bike so I havent personally removed the exhaust.
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D
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posted January 16, 2006 08:58 AM
Dolans' 04 10R weighed in @ 436 wet, fully stock.
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fish_antlers
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posted January 16, 2006 09:15 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 16 Jan 2006 09:16
different scales, different years of bike, ...
I weighed an 05 and an 06.
neither had a full tank of gas
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted January 16, 2006 09:27 AM
Just guessing but it seems that if the 06 is 29ish pounds heavier and 2-3 seconds faster around a particular track IMHO the only thing that could make that much difference is the assumption that the 06 doesn't want to wheelie out of every corner hence easier to ride. Good for track times. bad for fun factor.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
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trenace
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posted January 16, 2006 09:41 AM
Edited By: trenace on 16 Jan 2006 09:43
The current Motorcyclist article had an interesting thing on that, from interviewing a Kawasaki engineer on the question of the swingarm being a little shorter, yet still, apparently, what would be considered long. They wanted to know why it had been shortened a little when the trend has been to longer and longer swingarms (for same wheelbase.)
His answer was that shorter-armed swingarms hook up better and are more controllable in rear wheel slides. The MotoGP bikes have the arms as long as they do for the purpose of minimizing wheelies, not for the absolute best handling: it's a tradeoff and getting the extra trace of acceleration before wheelieing is worth the slight handling tradeoff. But for the street, having an extra little bit of anti-wheelieing tendency wasn't considered worth the handling trade-off, hence the arm was shortened very slightly from last year, though still "long."
So apparently it's probably the reverse: the '06 presumably wheelies easier than the '05, not more reluctantly. Not only because of the slightly-less-long swingarm, but because of the higher CG as well.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted January 16, 2006 11:10 AM
Don't tell me that  I want to keep my 05 for many reasons and one of the reasons is because of it's willingness to wheelie out of a corner. Another reason is I like the rear wheel to slide, So now I must weigh which I like better.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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trenace
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posted January 16, 2006 11:49 AM
Edited By: trenace on 16 Jan 2006 11:51
Well, if happy with the '05's willingness to wheelie, then you're already happy, so that's not a compelling reason to switch, and if I understood the engineer correctly, he's saying the '05 with the longer swingarm was more prone to the rear hanging out. Which also sounds like, for you, no reason to switch.
On re-reading I see that I did not phrase myself well or explain too well in the first post. To elaborate, the Kawasaki engineer explained that with a longer swingarm there was more tendency for the rear wheel to stay hung out rather than tending to stay closer in and hooking up more.
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 16, 2006 12:43 PM
Already happy is not quite true. I would be much happier if it wheelied easier at speed. I live at altitude and take quite a power hit. The few time I have ridden it at lower attitudes I still would have preferred it to loft easier.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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trenace
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posted January 16, 2006 01:19 PM
Edited By: trenace on 16 Jan 2006 13:21
Ah, well in that case then theoretically it sounds as if the '06 will have a little more wheelieing tendency, both from the swingarm being a little less long and from the higher cg. But whether that will prove an obvious or subtle effect, I sure don't know. Just as a personal worthless guess, I'd bet moderate?
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TedG
Moderator
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posted January 16, 2006 01:37 PM
You are probably right. On the street it most likely would be hard to tell the difference.. Anyway I like a powerband more like a 2 stroke. Kinda let it hang out when the power hits for fun or point and shoot for speed.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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sirwood10
Novice Class
Posts: 55
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posted January 16, 2006 04:08 PM
damnit bobby , you mean the 06 weighs mo! well it might be good cause its hard keeping that front wheel on the ground
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zxhoya
Zone Head
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posted January 17, 2006 01:55 AM
Edited By: zxhoya on 17 Jan 2006 02:07
An excerpt from Motorcyclist:
"Whatever the case, scootching the steering head forward and increasing the rake lengthened the wheelbase, so the swingarm was shortened to compensate, and the pivot lowered to retain optimum alignment for drive-chain torque. But wait a second, isn't the current trend toward longer swingarms? Yes, it is, and even Kawasaki's '06 press materials tout the 10R' s ''new MotoGP type swingarm." Maybe it's still long; just not as long as before.
Satshi Ebisu, a testing department engineer who worked for Kaw's U.S. road-race team in the Rob Muzzy era, shined some light on the subject. "If long swingarms improve traction, why are dirt-trackers so short?" he asked. It's not like they need a short wheelbase to get around a mile oval. To hear him tell it, a short swingarm lets a bike drive forward when the rear tire slides, whereas a long swingarm lets the tire step out and slide even more. MotoGP bikes only have long swingarms to counter wheelies, he said."
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zxhoya
Zone Head
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posted January 17, 2006 03:28 AM
more from Motorcyclist:
"The difference is that the new ZX-1R flat out works. No sooner had the '04 model hit the streets tan the engineers started on the '06 model, identifying three key goals: 1) To meet more stringent Euro 3 and California emissions standards with no loss of power from the current claimed 173hp; 2) to let the rider get on the gas earlier ad stay on it longer; and 3) better aerodynamics. While I can't vouch for the first and third goals, I can say that they nailed the second one.
........and it was while rocketing down the half-mile long front straight behind him [ R&D tester Shigeru Yamashita ] that I noticed how much more quickly the new bike revs. It's not MotoGP-quick, but I still got into the rev limiter a few times before making a mental note to shift sooner. Up-shifts are much better now, too; I only missed 2 downshifts in the course of 50 or so laps. But as I learned the 3-mile-long track and began to pick up the pace, it was the flawless throttle response, linear power delivery and smooth off corner acceleration that impressed me the most.
A big part of the reason I liked the previous-generation 10R was its ergonomic setup; it was thin through the middle, tailored to fit tall, long-legged rider's like me, and stiffly sprung. The new bike, in contrast, feels smaller and wider, like the ZX-6R, and I found it more difficult to tuck in behind the windscreen. It' suspension was noticeably softer, especially in the rear. Even 130-pounders at the intro wanted more preload."
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''The angle of my dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of my meat'' Will Ferrell
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zxhoya
Zone Head
Posts: 631
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posted January 17, 2006 03:35 AM
Final from Motorcyclist:
''Kawaski's testing revealed that while the '04-'05 ZX-10R snapped into corners quickly, there was a slight hesitation picking it back up. The '06 model proved to flop from side to side with less effort and was much more stable under braking, both in a straight line and while trail-braking into a corner. But it also resisted turning-in on the brakes, which caused me difficulties entering the three slowest corners on the track.''
''The latter finding came as something of a surprise to 3-times AMA champ Doug Chandler, who rode with us at the press intro. Having done some prototype testing at Autopolis a few months earlier, he was disappointed to discover the pre-production bikes we rode had less-aggressive steering geometry than his preferred setup. But like I told him, he was on the extreme end of Kawasaki's test rider base. The more stable setup should prove better for most riders, particularly on the street.''
''So, the '06 ZX-10R is good. Is it better than the GSX-R 1000? Lemme sleep on it"
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''The angle of my dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of my meat'' Will Ferrell
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bluedevil
Expert Class
Posts: 115
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posted January 17, 2006 06:42 PM
quote:
different scales, different years of bike, ...
I weighed an 05 and an 06.
neither had a full tank of gas
Sorry about my post to you Fish...just encase you didn't read it on the ZX-10r.net forum. Im sure your results will be close just got a little exited as I have done tests like that too and wanted a full gas test. Anyway...thanks..
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