zeta xray
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posted May 26, 2005 08:28 AM
Safety wire
I know that all of the M/C racing organizations are extremely anal about safety wire. I always assumed that safety wiring of fluid retention fasteners had it origins in aircraft maintinance. And since legend has it that all of current day motorcycling has its rebirth from servicemen returning from WW II, I figured they brought the habit of safety wiring with them to motorcycles. My question is......
In light of the fact that almost all other motorsports, safety wire is no longer used because fasteners have improved, gaskets are better, gasket surfaces are made to much closer tolerances, etc, etc. So why does the motorcycle community still kling so adamantly to using safety wire? I have always been of the opinion that safety wiring does not prevent a poor mechanic from being incompetent. I know of one situation where a guy working on a bike, safety wired the oil filter even though it was not properly tightened. It still leaked. I realize how disasterous a fluid spill is when you only have 2 tiny contact patches to attach you to Mother Earth. But a tiny patch of fluid would also be disasterous if you encountered it while entering turn 4 at Indy in a 4 wheeled vehicle, for example. I think the fluid retention belly pans are a great idea, but I would not have any reservations about riding my bike at any speed without having it safety wired. The only motorcycle oil spill on a track that I have seen in the last 2 years, since I started to go to track days, was the result of an engine grenading and safety wire did not help that situation. And safety wire does not help if a bike is crashed and an engine cover gets cracked and leaks oil. The only benefit that I can see is that the guy turning the wrenches may find that some vital piece is still loose, while he is in the process of attaching the safety wire.
My background has more to do with car racing (not counting my MX racing) so I tend to not have much faith in the benefits of safety wire. But I know many of you are much more knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to 2 wheeled racing, so I am looking for opinions.
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TedG
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posted May 26, 2005 08:38 AM
Well here is what I believe, A safety wired nut, bolt, filter does a few things, first it allows an inspector to see that the fastener will not fall out visually. Second it allows the inspector to at least know the part had been attended to. A small leak is one thing and part falling off and causing a large spill is another.
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k bryant
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posted May 26, 2005 09:10 AM
zeta - I tend to agree with you. It tends to make the tech inspection guys believe all is tight and secure. And obviously it (when done properly) would/should prevent an outright fluid spill. I think it benefits the mechanic into to being more diligent in those areas.
But I could also see the argument of all the 1000's of track day riders who are not required to safety wire those areas (as well as your point on moto-x) and you don't hear too many horror stories about massive fluid leaks or drain plugs coming out.
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big daddy
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posted May 26, 2005 12:19 PM
It could certainly be viewed as a self check system.
BD
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redelk
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posted May 26, 2005 02:22 PM
From a logical standpoint, I too would agreed. From a realistic and trackside standpoint, I would adamantly disagree. At least on the club racing level.
Many club racers do not have their own personal mechanic that works on their bike(s) while the rider sits in the cool comfort in the RV. One would think that even the mid pack rider would have their act together by the time they arrived at the track. In reality, you often see folks working on their bikes in the paddocks late into the night before the races the following (same?) morning. Even the "fast guys" are seen doing this. Fluids and calipers (after tire changes) are some of the last items to go into the bike. Doing such services either at the track or on the night before one leaves for the track, one is not their sharpest or most attentive. last year at Hallett, I saw the results of a 636 losing an oil filter. Luckily, not much, if anything got on the track, but it did send the bike and rider into the runoff.
The abundant use of aluminium and soft metals to save weight also results in torque specs measured in inches instead of feet. Just a few weeks ago, we had a lower engine bolt come out of the frame of our endurance bike. Though it is not required to be safety wired (since it has a self locking nut on it), I can only blame the low torque specs for it's falling out, because I know that I had triple checked it during it's installation during the off season. It is hardly a bolt one would think would fall out if installed properly. Having a self locking nut and using Loctite makes it all the easier to ignore during a inspection by either the rider or mechanic. All the same, it's falling out explains to me why we unknowingly ran all last season without one. It was not until a engine swap did we even realize it was missing.
Unlike hand built race cars, many bikes and their OEM bolts and fasteners are hardly anything to write home about. Combined with the frantic nature of a track side tire change, using safety wire and clips is the easiest was to ensure the safety of the rider and those sharing the track with him (or her). I reluctantly admit having more than one bolt or nut get loose in all the years I have been riding. Only because of my rush to get things back together, I might overlook a seemingly minor, yet critical fastener. Requiring safety wire on the fasteners and caps of the items that would be the most dangerous (caliper bolts, oil filters/plugs, etc.) to the riders is a precaution that is prudent and comes from officials' past experiences.
Though the design and specs of nuts, bolts and caps, when installed properly, are meant to be secure during normal operation, racing is not "normal" and folks in a hurry have been known to not "properly install" these items. I might bitch about having to put a hose clamp onto a K&N oil filter that I have already safety wired to the frame, but I concede that it is only for the safety of my riders and others that share the track. it is also those times that I look over at some other team and watch them work on their bikes, REALLY makes me thankful that they have to safety wire those items. Otherwise, I'd be scared to death to get onto the same track with them.
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lizard
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posted May 28, 2005 06:46 AM
Um, Junior s ............ where are you?
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junior s
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posted May 29, 2005 08:26 AM
Fabricating stuff just so that I can safety wire stuff ......
I got into the habit of safety wiring oil drain plugs when I was roadracing and still do it every time , haven't had one come loose but I'm a paranoid freak (ask anybody that knows me ) so it helps me relax and ride instead of sweating the petty things .
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lizard
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posted May 30, 2005 04:24 PM
I have never had a wrench tightened drain plug come loose either.
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big daddy
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posted May 30, 2005 04:41 PM
theres ALWAYS a first time!!
BD
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lizard
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posted May 31, 2005 06:45 PM
I have been profesionaly wreching for over 20 years, Ya think I would seen one come loose in that time.
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zeta xray
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posted May 31, 2005 07:16 PM
"theres ALWAYS a first time!!"
Yes, and by the same token, there could always be a first time when something fell off / came loose after it was safety wired. Oops, I will bet that has already happened.
They don't safety wire the oil drain plug on a Ferrari F1 engine that turns 18,000 rpm and costs more than the net worth of some small countries. But those guys are just looking for trouble. Some day their drain plug is going to fall out and then they will be sorry.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted May 31, 2005 08:21 PM
Silicone, people. A little dab'll do ya.
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big daddy
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posted May 31, 2005 09:35 PM
quote:
"theres ALWAYS a first time!!"
Yes, and by the same token, there could always be a first time when something fell off / came loose after it was safety wired. Oops, I will bet that has already happened.
They don't safety wire the oil drain plug on a Ferrari F1 engine that turns 18,000 rpm and costs more than the net worth of some small countries. But those guys are just looking for trouble. Some day their drain plug is going to fall out and then they will be sorry.
You can wrench for 20yrs or 68 fuggen yrs but that has little if anything to do with being proactive and adding a security blanket if you will. The comparo of an F1 car vs bikes is, well really silly zeta (who gives a fugg) now stay focused on said subject otherwise you'll be sorry you made such a silly thread.
BD
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junior s
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posted May 31, 2005 09:47 PM
quote:
I have been profesionaly wreching for over 20 years, Ya think I would seen one come loose in that time.
um yeah , so that's what you tell the little wifey when you leave the house in the morning ? And she goes for it ?
I've turned the occasional wrench over the years as well and have found properly torqued bolts can come loose sometimes ( torqued them myself in one harrowing instance ) , bolt stretch , corrosion and wear and tear mean it can happen , not that it will . I prefer to be prepared just in case , and for the time saved not doing it ...... it ain't that much time .
Silicone has to be cleaned off the threads ; safety wire is cut , removed and it's clean .
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted June 01, 2005 06:46 AM
No, you do not put silicone on the threads. Just put a dab between the head of the bolt and the engine. It's not going anywhere.
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lizard
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posted June 01, 2005 07:20 PM
Most motorcycle engine oil drain plugs are between 14 and 22 ft/lbs. let's hope you didn't over tighten it , so not much chance of bolt stretch there, Corrosion? never seen it on a drain plug. It has oil on the pressure side and if oil changes are done at the correct intervals it won't corrode on the outside . ................. Nice try
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junior s
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posted June 01, 2005 08:50 PM
quote:
Most motorcycle engine oil drain plugs are between 14 and 22 ft/lbs. let's hope you didn't over tighten it , so not much chance of bolt stretch there, Corrosion? never seen it on a drain plug. It has oil on the pressure side and if oil changes are done at the correct intervals it won't corrode on the outside . ................. Nice try
Other bolts dude , not just limited to drain plugs , damn your fussy today aren't you , oh forget it I gotta go safety wire something , later yall .
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zeta xray
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posted June 01, 2005 08:54 PM
quote:
quote:
"theres ALWAYS a first time!!"
Yes, and by the same token, there could always be a first time when something fell off / came loose after it was safety wired. Oops, I will bet that has already happened.
They don't safety wire the oil drain plug on a Ferrari F1 engine that turns 18,000 rpm and costs more than the net worth of some small countries. But those guys are just looking for trouble. Some day their drain plug is going to fall out and then they will be sorry.
You can wrench for 20yrs or 68 fuggen yrs but that has little if anything to do with being proactive and adding a security blanket if you will. The comparo of an F1 car vs bikes is, well really silly zeta (who gives a fugg) now stay focused on said subject otherwise you'll be sorry you made such a silly thread.
BD
Well BD, it is a valid question relating to the motorcycle racing community joining the later part of the 20th century, much less the 21st century. If you don't see how the comparison to a Ferrari F1 engine is valid, maybe I should express it in simpler terms for you. F1 engines are highly stressed alloy engines, subjected to extremely high rpm's, high torsional forces and tremendous vibration. All of which are enemies to fasteners staying fastened. Motorcycle engines face a lot of the same chalenges but at significantly lower levels. If a F1 engine can be kept together without safety wire, why can't a motorcycle racing engine? Motorcycle engines have advanced significantly since the Harley and Triumph engines of the 50's, when safety wire became a necesity to try to keep those old leakers together. I have used a ton of safety wire in the "old days" in an attempt to keep all of the parts on my race bikes. In those days , I would have used safety wire completely voluntarily. But is that necessary today? I don't know, but I don't think it is.
Now BD if you would like to actually discuss this in a factual manner and share some insights gained from your years of running track days, that would be great. But if you are just going to get your panties in a wad because you take this as a personal attack, I don't need any more responses like "you'll be sorry you made such a silly thread." Come on what's with that? Are you going to send me to my room without playing with my computer? If you think it is that silly, don't respond.
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lizard
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posted June 01, 2005 10:39 PM
quote:
quote:
Most motorcycle engine oil drain plugs are between 14 and 22 ft/lbs. let's hope you didn't over tighten it , so not much chance of bolt stretch there, Corrosion? never seen it on a drain plug. It has oil on the pressure side and if oil changes are done at the correct intervals it won't corrode on the outside . ................. Nice try
Other bolts dude , not just limited to drain plugs , damn your fussy today aren't you , oh forget it I gotta go safety wire something , later yall .
Dude that's all I got. Peace out.
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redelk
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posted June 02, 2005 01:52 AM
Okay, here's the rules in from the sanctioning body ZX and I are involved in (I don't race - I wrench).
In order to pass CMRA Technical Inspection, the following items must be safety wired:
Axles or Axle Nuts
Axle Caps or Pinch Bolts
Oil Filler Caps
Oil Drain Plugs
Oil Filter/Filter Bolts
Oil Galley Plugs*
Oil Lines
Oil Cooler Bolt
Fork Oil Drain Bolts
Radiator Caps
Coolant Drains
Brake Caliper Bolts
*may be secured by silicone glue or H/D weather-strip adhesive in lieu of wiring.
Fuel lines and any other fluid carrying lines must be clamped or secured by some other
appropriate means.
Tire valve caps must be used and should be metal or hard plastic.
In less than two seasons, I have seen the following "come loose or off" or "fail to retain fluids":
Axles or Axle Nuts
Axle Caps or Pinch Bolts
Oil Drain Plugs
Oil Filter/Filter Bolts
Radiator Caps
Coolant Drains
Brake Caliper Bolts
One thing I have never seen is a tire valve come out.
ZX, the reason I'd question your F1 comparison is that I can't remember ever seeing a driver actually "service" or "repair" a F1 car. I have seen over 90% of the riders in CMRA do both. Though my suggestion about the "nuts and bolts" aspect might not hold water (pun intended), When the owner/operator/mechanic are all the same person, it is too hard to ignore the need to insure that these individuals do it properly.
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junior s
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posted June 02, 2005 05:40 AM
I had the caliper bolts (two of them) come loose on the wifes 9R , they always get wired now , and just because I really am that paranoid , loctited as well . That was after using a torque wrench (snap on) and having witnesses see me do it . I take my time servicing partly because I enjoy it and also because of paranoia , - doesn't hurt to have more than one bike to ride either . 
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zeta xray
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posted June 02, 2005 05:46 AM
 Edited By: zeta xray on 2 Jun 2005 06:46
Good post redelk. Well the reason for the metal or hard plastic valve caps is not that they will come out, but rather that the valve core will go in. The cetrifugal force on the valve stem is so high at high speed that the tire valve can and will open at high speed. The valve cap is a second barrier against air loss.
And I certainly agree about some of the wrenching capabilities of rider/wrenches. Maybe a good rule would be that a rider can't work on his own bike 30 minutes before or 30 minutes after riding the bike. Adrenelin obviously does temporary brain damage.
Red, on those items that you listed as coming loose, were they safety wired? I know they should have been, but?????
And to be honest, I can actually say that a safety wired axle clip would have valuable on at least one occassion that I know of, where an axle nut was not properly torqued. It would have still come loose, but at least the rider would not have lost all of the parts on that side. And it could have been a much worse situation.
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redelk
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posted June 02, 2005 07:24 AM
That's the scariest part ZX, I'd guess that at least 1/3 or 1/3 of those instances, there was some attempt to use safety wire. A perfect example would be that even though the K&N filters are capable of being safety wired (which we do), we STILL have to also use a large hose clamp and it too has to be safety wired. Why? Because some yahoo didn't safety wire it properly.
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-Ernest Hemingway
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10rmotor
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posted June 02, 2005 09:02 PM
Zeta
"In light of the fact that almost all other motorsports, safety wire is no longer used because fasteners have improved, gaskets are better, gasket surfaces are made to much closer tolerances, etc, etc"
Where did you get this info? Have you looked closely at current race cars? They still have safety wire on critical fasteners , and A/N fasteners are still available already drilled for safety wire. I've never heard of using silicone instead of safety wire and wouldn't trust it for a second.
I definitely safety wire the drain plug. If nothing else, I can look at it and know its tight.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted June 07, 2005 10:17 PM
quote:
...I've never heard of using silicone instead of safety wire and wouldn't trust it for a second...
Any science to back up your irrational fear? Ever seen a 'coned fastener come loose? Hmmm...thought not.
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