entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 09, 2003 08:47 AM
Q: speciality clutches for drags?????????
My ignorance sometimes amazes even me.
Would someone tell me the difference between:
1. lock up clutch
2. multistage clutch
3. slider clutch
Although I am flat broke until another "You are Pre-approved for Mastercard" offer arrives in the mail, I am doing my homeork in advance... 
thx in advance for any help you can give.
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zrxdean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted September 09, 2003 10:17 AM
I thought you had a mutil-stage lockup clutch in your bike?
You can check out Tony Lang's page for clutch explanations. His company (MTC) makes all three. There is no slider available for the 12 yet, but I guess it's in development.
http://www.mpsmall.com/mtc/
Of course Muzzy makes a lockup for the 12 - you've prolly seen it on their page.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 09, 2003 11:54 AM
Dean, thanks for the reference.
Nope, no fancy clutch for me (yet), but if a part makes things more predictable, I am all for it.
As much as I am a Muzzy Cheerleader, I have heard too many puller problems with Muzzy's set up. Hard to figure tho????
Do you have a reference for somwhere which will explain basically how they work? I'm dense...
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zrxdean
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posted September 09, 2003 02:20 PM
Here's the nickel version -talk to Tony Lang for the straight scoop. A lockup works by using the centifugal force of your spinning clutch to progressively add pressure on the pressure plate. As the rear wheel speed increases (not RPM), 6 (5, 4, etc) little arms attached to the 'snowflake' push outward, against the pplate. You can adjust timing and force by adding weight to these arms. This available force allows you to use much lighter clutch springs, and thus get a smoother launch, ideally to the point where you can 'throw the clutch away' and let the balance of static spring pressure and arm weight fight it out until you're flying, without smoking your plates. This is difficult in practice on a street bike, with no bar.
Enter the multi-stage, which adds another level of tunability to the lockup - springs under the snowflake arms controlling the rate at which they resist centifugal force and push against the pplate. When they are set up right, supposedly you can let the clutch fly on a streetbike. I haven't used one, I dunno. Cowboy?
A slider is a race-only centrifugal clutch. At idle you are disengaged. When RPM rises, spring-loaded arms rotate outward and lock the clutchpack. You set launch RPM again by spring pressure, wack it and go. Again I've never ridden a slider bike. Kevin swears by them for dragbikes. Seems like all the ProMods and Outlaws use them.
Hopefully I'll be back at Gainesville tomorrow night - trying out the 1109. Anyone going?
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted September 09, 2003 04:36 PM
I wish I was. Marriage has broke my ass. Let us know how it goes Dean. Any word on the dry sump?
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
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posted September 09, 2003 07:10 PM
Entrophy... I spoke with a guy at Gainesville last year... Dr Freeze.. who told me that for $80 he could "cryo treat" the steels and fibers and he guaranteed a full "season" out of them. He was located on Long Island.. I think.
Might be worth try at the price... since you kinda volunteered to be the guinea pig...lol 
CHRIS"DR FREEZE"VIOLA
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 09, 2003 08:35 PM
Haha! Everything is worth trying out if you can convince someone else to try it out first.
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entropy
Moderator
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posted September 10, 2003 04:59 AM
Dean,
That's EXACTLY what I wanted to know!
thanks a million!
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entropy
Moderator
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posted September 10, 2003 05:03 AM
TB,
my clutch plate life is WAY better now that I am using a 10", where I can just throw the lever out. Dr Freeze may have to find another test subject
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zrxdean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted September 10, 2003 06:55 AM
I'm impressed you're getting 8s with the stock clutch setup Karl. You may have a few MPH waiting for you when you get a lockup.
Ken I haven't advanced the dry sump much, been attending to other things, like the cases. I have the reservoir mostly ready (ugly but functional), I just need to hang it and get some lines. I need to do some work around the tree to be able to slam it, the 5 deg rake wasn't enough. Married life treating you well, seen-yor?
I finally got the 78mm pistons and block in last night (this morning..) Plenty of clearance at the valve, but I think the block was decked, cuz it turns over hard, and sounds like a lot of compression. Yeehaw. I'll find out tonite hopefully how it runs. I still have to do a compression test & leakdown.
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted September 10, 2003 07:03 AM
 Edited By: your car is slow on 10 Sep 2003 08:05
I had debated going if I could sneak out of work early enough...but I need steve to drop my trailer off....goddam its nice here in jax...everyone loans everyone else shit 
(hey kev Ill bring the valve to gville if we are both goin)
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Cmarsh93z
Novice Class
Posts: 44
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posted September 10, 2003 09:23 AM
Ive got a few bikes around my shop with multistages in them. Karl if you need to know anything about them let me know. So far Ive got 1.50s @ 60 inches and 167rwhp, I figure @ 210rwhp it should 60ft in the 1.45 range @ 60 inches....the soon to be turbo bike will have a multistage too.
nickcox5@hotmail.com
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 10, 2003 12:25 PM
Edited By: entropy on 10 Sep 2003 14:03
Cmarsh93z
I appreciate the offer, but am really too broke right now to buy anything. But i will do a lockup (or multistage?) when I do the dray shot towards the end of this year.
When do you figure that the turbo will be together and ready to start working out the bugs?
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted September 10, 2003 03:39 PM
Good info Dean...
One slight mis-take...
The slider IS a lock-up...but it uses the springs to DIS-engage the pressure plate instead of engage it like a normal clutch...
When you turn the NUTS (not bolts) that hold the springs in for more spring pressure...it raises the "stall speed" of the clutch/motor
I LOVE THEM!!!
We offered John's bike to Tony (more than once) to make a ZX12 Slider but...he said he just has too many things going...doesn't have the time...yet 
We would for SURE have one in John's 12...if it was available...
We ARE going to put one in his Z1R STREET BIKE...
I've had it figured out for years how to work it on the street (disengage it for easy shifting/down-shifting) but haven't had a bike to do it...
We will do it next year for sure on John's Z1R when I build his motor
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted September 10, 2003 04:39 PM
so to throw more confusion into the mix... how does a "slipper" clutch work? not that i believe it's useful in dragging.
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted September 10, 2003 07:24 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 10 Sep 2003 21:05
It was just "named" the Slider by the man that invented it at MTC...
It has arms (capitol L shaped levers) that pivot at the bottom where the vertical part (of L) meets the horizontal...
(long part of Lever is vertical AS SEEN IN PICTURE...FLAT ON TABLE IN FRONT OF YOU...
There is a hole towards the end of the Lever to accept a bolt (used for weight...seen in picture with a couple of washers and a nut on each)...the bottom part of the L shaped lever pushes against the pressure plate which in turn pushes against the clutch plates when the centrifugal force on the Bolts/Levers increases with engine RPMs and forces the lever to pivot outward...
More RPM means more leverage/squeeze on clutch plates...
THE SPRINGS...keep the Pressure Plate AWAY from the clutch plates until the RPM is increased enough to move the levers...pushing the Pressure Plate against the Clutch Plates...
It works/feels similar to any SCOOTER, ATV that has no clutch lever on the handle bars...YES!!! you could TAKE YOUR CLUTCH LEVER OFF and THROW IT AWAY!!! if you have a Slider Clutch!!!
Just turn the throttle to GO!!!
It is IMPOSSIBLE to "bog the motor down" (let alone stall/kill) with a Slider Clutch because the RPMs CAN'T be pulled down by the clutch...any lower than what the "Stall Speed" is set at (set with spring pressure/turning the large BLUE nuts on the springs in the picture)...
Then...after the clutch is "LOCKED UP" (bike/WHEEL speed equal to "Clutch Stall-Speed") the Engine RPMs can/will increase along with transmission/rear wheel speed...
Make sense??? I hope
You can NOT see the actual Pressure Plate in this picture because it is on the underside of the RED "HAT" (what the entire Red unit is called)...
You can see the levers pretty good in the picture...
The "HAT" has little bolt holes around it's perimiter(SP) (seen in picture) and the HAT bolts TO THE CLUTCH BASKET (some of the bolt holes can be seen in this picture...
SHOOOOOO...Im going HOME now
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Cmarsh93z
Novice Class
Posts: 44
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posted September 11, 2003 06:45 AM
Karl, that was me, another red head....
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mrsantafe
Zone Head
Posts: 521
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posted September 11, 2003 10:05 AM
The slider clutch how much is it? Is it for drag race applications only? I have and 02 12 that makes 200 hp and a stock clutch. I'm confused other than the fact I should get and upgraded clutch. I don't know which one to get.
I ride this bike every chance I get and take it to the strip on weekends.
Thanks in advance!!
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9.78@155.13 mph 1.71 60 ft @ a near mile high dragstrip
2006 ZX14 gone
2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 11, 2003 11:41 AM
quote:
Karl, that was me, another red head....
Karl, that was me, another red head....
Nick,
i am confused as usual!! I know who you are but who is Cmarsh93z?????
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kawachan
Pro
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posted September 11, 2003 12:36 PM
Chris Marsh right?? He ran 60" with a stock "dry shot" silver 12 down at HRP. Did pretty good too......
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted September 11, 2003 12:55 PM
mrsantafe...
The DON'T make Sliders for ZX12s yet...they ARE for RACING only
I recomend getting a Billet Basket (Muzzys or Falicon...they are both the same Basket...Muzzys if your out west, Falicon if your eastern) and the Muzzys Clutch kit...
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Cmarsh93z
Novice Class
Posts: 44
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posted September 16, 2003 07:04 PM
my name :)
Me and Nick(AnotherRedHead)work at the same shop (AMS ProCycles)....so we often post under each others names! I have a Viper Steel Grey Zx12, that is 60 inchs. I just installed a MTC MultiStage lockup in my Zx12, and I am still sorting it out. I basicly have it down to throwing the clutch away at 5000 rpms, and cutting 1.56's. I just added alittle ballast to the bike last night (40 pounds), so I should be able to get alittle more agressive on the launch The MTC Multistage is the sh*t when it comes to clutchs.....never had one problem with it!
Chris
AMS ProCycles
60" Zx12
For SALE!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 17, 2003 12:00 AM
Edited By: entropy on 17 Sep 2003 01:03
guys,
1. Could you tell us what is the functional difference between "lockup" and "multistage
lockup"??
2. can you pull in the clutch at big end speeds with either set up?
3. why buy one vs the other???
thanks!
(from MTC site)
MTC Snowflake lock up clutch
These new two stage lockups feature new technology, very lightweight design, with new features only available through MTC Engineering. The primary spring loads are adjusted by means of adding or subtracting .025-.050 thick special spacers supplied with the unit. No more will you have to select different springs to change primary stage clutch pressure. The Suzuki units incorporate within the lockup body the stock spring spacers. These new units are C.N.C. machined assuring uniformity. To provide repeatability on the track we install hardened buttons in your pressure plate (may be purchased without the buttons installed) except with the GSXR model.
MTC Multi Stage Lock up Clutch
Each arm represents one stage of lock-up adjustment. Arms are controlled by stall spring, thus allowing the mechanic flexibility in determing the RPM each finger will start applying clutch pressure. In addition, an arm can be ajusted to release clutch pressure at maximum rated torque your engine produces, thus keeping your motor at maximum efficiency with each gear change.
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02zx12rbob
Expert Class
Posts: 496
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posted September 17, 2003 06:24 AM
Edited By: 02zx12rbob on 17 Sep 2003 07:24
Karl...I'm with you , I'm lost with the different clutch selections (and broke)
One thing is fer' certain. I could use plenty of help when it comes to launching consistantly.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 17, 2003 08:48 AM
My launching is is getting much more consistent w/10" arm by letting go of the clutch and pinning the gas asap.
BUT my clutches are starting to wear fibers more than steels (as compared to when I used to slip the clutch w/ stock or 6" arm. I figure a lock up or multistage lockup will give me more clutch longevity AND maybe a couple mph on the big end.
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