KZScott
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posted November 22, 2011 03:34 PM
Thank you Muzzys!!!
Just wanted to publicly thank Rob Muzzy and Dave Turner for taking care of me and giving me some awesome deals on parts. I also want to thank Doug Meyer for his help with answering my many questions about the best way to build a turbo 12 motor, and making sure I was being looked after at Muzzys.
Ill get pics up soon of the new parts
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted November 22, 2011 05:35 PM
84mm billet block, semi wet/dry. machined for SS O rings. this is what Gadsons and Rays shootout bikes used, the promod Schnitz drove ect. all made over 500hp
Dave Turner: It still runs the coolant but now the block is way stronger. We tried dry block and full wet block and this by far was best for equal heat transfer. Its the same cylinder we used on our street strip bikes we have built in the past. Just make sure you bleed the air out of the system good.
OEM rod, bushed by Muzzys for their spec custom small pin turbo pistons.
84mm turbo piston. very rugged design, a little heavy, but it needs to be extra strong
somebody did a little work to these. pre prepped. NICE! Thanks Muzzys!
when you machine a blank intended to be 82mm at 84mm, you get a very thick, very strong piston. a little heavier than normal, but required when making over 500 rear wheel HP with a 1.2l
at first glance, these look like normal pins, but look closer (the flash really helped) and you will see that the ID gets smaller towards the center. its very very thick where the most stress is
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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posted November 22, 2011 06:52 PM
no more of this at 27 psi
Doug Meyer talking about the billet block: that setup was bulletproof on Gadson's bike at 500 hp/ 30+ pounds.
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
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posted November 22, 2011 08:17 PM
wow wee....look the fuck out
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KZScott
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posted November 27, 2011 04:27 PM
 Edited By: KZScott on 28 Nov 2011 00:29
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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busaeater01
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted December 15, 2011 07:57 AM
Scott,
Awesome setup! Are these billet blocks available from Muzzys currently?
I'm trying to figure out the best route for my build. I have an mps spyder system right now, only spraying a 40 shot. i'm looking at a small bore, like 85 mm or 85.5mm or possibly even keeping the bore stock because I want to spray around a 200 hp shot. Also looking at a stroker crank, possibly a small stroker 2 or 3 mm over as i don't want to have some of the skirt issues it seems the large stroke engines get into. This looks like a great block to hold the combustion chamber pressure of a 200 shot. Any advice from people with experience with this sort of build would be greatly appreciated.
____________
Death is Certain, Life is Not
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KZScott
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posted December 15, 2011 03:46 PM
I got a block that was hiding on a shelf in their race shop, leftover from their SBS program. Im not sure if they currently offer this, but you may be able to get one made. it will easily handle a 200 shot. these blocks have held over 500 hp on turbo builds.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
busaeater01
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted December 15, 2011 04:20 PM
thanks again!
____________
Death is Certain, Life is Not
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Oz Booster
Expert Class
Posts: 230
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posted December 16, 2011 12:48 PM
The stock/bushed rods are ok with the heavier pistons and extra stresses??
Block looks great
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KZScott
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posted December 16, 2011 02:11 PM
Im told thats what they used in their bikes
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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posted December 26, 2011 10:23 AM
Peak rod loads result from RPM not cylinder pressure. It's the stop at the top and reversal of direction that kills rods, not the compression loads from peak cylinder pressure. In fact, blown engines have a more constant load on the rod because of the positive pressure in the cylinder from the time the inlet valve opens. Turbo's can make their HP from increased torque due to higher cylinder pressure, not increased rpm. There is no reason to increase the revs on a turbo for more power, just add boost (within reason).
The reason for the bushed rod is to allow for a smaller diameter pin, which allows the ring pack to be moved down on the piston, further from the crown. This provides a much stronger area above the top ring and under the inlet valve notch in the piston. That area, at the inlet valve, is first spot where any detonation will kill the engine.
Scott asked me offline about the flat top piston and the resulting higher compression compared to the dished piston commonly found in other "bolt on" turbo kits. There are two reasons for this. First the obvious, it's stronger, more resistant to detonation damage and heat. Thin crowns at high boost will actually bend and sag, if you got a chance to look at one just before the run where it was going to break.....
But even more important for drag racing, the higher static compression means you can run LESS boost at the launch in first because you have more "unblown" power. This means your launch is more controllable, less susceptible to bogging or blowing away the tire, allowing more rider control (if your initials are R.G. anyway).
Remember a good strong NA engine has to be the basis for a good turbo. Any power you make NA means less boost is needed for a given total power. Less boost means lower inlet temps, (and less intercooling is needed to avoid detonation, less intercooling means less overall weight, better flow to the engine, better packaging , etc).
The turbo can be better sized to run in "meat" of the map. Of course, to make this all work perfectly you need a mulit-stage boost controller, which allows light boost in first, more in 2nd, max in 3rd and 4th, less in 5th and 6th to control top end wheelspin and have lower inlet temps to avoid higher load detonation during the longer pulls in those gears....
Make sense?
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Oz Booster
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posted December 26, 2011 12:56 PM
Thanks for your reply Doug
It does make sense,boosted motors can make a lot more hp on std rods than NA
One of the reasons i asked is i am also building a turbo Kawi and would like to get some idea of limits of the various parts
All my experiance so far has been suzuki, and i am not adverse to using stock rods , but not beyond 14 or so psi and not in race use .
Mainly as i feel the bolts/clamping force/ are the limiting factor , with the faster engine acceleration rates pulling harder on the bolts , esp if you get wheelspin, and if using heavier pistons , putting yet more load on the bolts
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KZScott
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posted December 26, 2011 03:09 PM
Doug, the reason I was asking about the rpm limits is because Im trying to raise the top speed of the bike without changing the gearing (as much). we all know this clutch isnt as rugged as the busa/14 so a little lower gearing should help the launch?? I have the lower first gear on the output shaft as well. not looking for more power with the extra revs, just trying to stay out of the limiter a few feet before the traps "7th gear"
I see a lot of pistons designed to be used with a 2mm spacer now, they add material at the top, resulting in lower rings like the smaller pin allows, good squish, and what i believed to still be a thick crown even with a dished top? I havent actually had any in my hands yet to compare though. If I were getting customs I would probly go this way unless convinced otherwise.
very good points on the launch, I wasnt really aware of that. I was having a hard time finding the sweet spot between a Tokyo drift and a bog at 8.7:1 CR building about 3ish psi on the 2 step and a 5.3 psi spring for first gear. sadly my initials are not RG and my left hand is proof...
I do have 3 manual air valves and regulators controlling air pressure to the top of the waste gate. using the oem gear pos sensor to trigger the valves. first is gate pressure (and lights up the FI light so I know its in first) second gear is another power level, 3rd is another, and 4th, 5th, 6th are all tied together for the same amount of boost. I will get something progressive later on, but this should work ok for now. it felt very smooth at "low" power, I think it was 10-12 psi max the one wknd i had it at the track. shifted cleanly and just kept pulling! one of the really bad launches was a 10.xx something run(i think) with a 44mph back half  best run was a 38mph/2.98sec back half. PST bikes get 2.3-2.4s dont they?
thanks for the reply Doug, Merry Christmas 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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posted December 26, 2011 05:17 PM
I've never seen a stock Kawasaki rod fail. Of course I mean a rod failure, not a bearing failure leading to a broken rod.
All the SBS bikes Muzzys built (for Rickey and customers) used stock rods. For Drag Racing you're wasting your money to use anything else.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted December 26, 2011 05:25 PM
So you are saying these will be fine at 12 000?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Oz Booster
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posted December 26, 2011 07:23 PM
wouldn't the first sign be a bearing failure , maybe some fretting on the caps if caught early in routine maintainence
I would be very happy to be confident enough to use them, just want to be sure , one i am building for myself,and i don't mind taking a calculated risk ... the second for someone else and it has to be right , and would rather overbuild
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dougmeyer
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posted December 28, 2011 06:43 PM
Scott,
Yes, but why would you spin it to 12? With just a bit more boost you'll make more power than you can use at 11!
Oz, If you mean the first sign of a rod failure, no. The first sign of a rod failure is a hole in the block.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 28, 2011 07:00 PM
OK just kidding. But look, RPM kills rod BOLTS not the rod, and I've seen stock ZX-12 rods run to 13,000. The rod isn't the weak point. In fact, (and I admit this is apples and oranges) the factory Kawasaki 750 Superbikes that were run 10 years ago that were built in Muzzys shop were spun routinely to 14,000. Those bikes had Kawasaki steel rods that looked pretty much like streetbike rods.
Just go back up to the photo of the rod in Scott's "strange damage" post where the guy tortured and finally murdered his engine. Look at the bolts, they are intact (but bent from the ultimate failure of the cap and loosening of the nuts from the heat. And, look at the pin end and the comment about how the pin "just fell out". Look what it took to finally kill that stock rod.
Now, just so I don't get accused of not practicing what I preach, somebody may have noted that I used Falicon Knife rods in my (Brenda's) ZX-11. I did that because I liked the shape to cut windage and aero-drag within the engine, not because I didn't think the stock ZX-11 rods were strong enough.
I knew they were because Steve Rice had used stock Kawasaki rods in his 500hp ZX-11 Turbo Alcohol Funnybike.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted December 28, 2011 09:06 PM
Im not really looking to make more power by revving it higher, just trying to keep it geared a little lower to help get off the line with less clutch slip, and still have enough top end. maybe use the extra rpm in the top of 6th IF its needed as "7th gear". another 4-600 rpm should allow an extra 8ish mph on paper.
that being said, launching on boost is something Im pretty new to as well, only a handfull of passes. I may not need it to be geared as low, but my experience with NA and nitrous is that lower gearing is easier on the clutch, and my best short times have been NA with lower gearing than "nitrous gearing". the "turbo gearing" is going to be higher still, and I feel like I may be be changing clutch steels more often.
I know 17 49 with a 190 50 shinko at about 12psi is good for 169mph part way through 6th. Im going to try 18 49 with a lot more boost next season. Im just worried about the clutch, yes I have the Robinson Industries lower first gear too 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 28, 2011 09:27 PM
I will tell you how I did Rickey's clutch- (this was a lockup with light weights)
Before the every raceday I unpacked and cleaned about 20 steels, and 20 fibers. I oiled the fibers and put them in a baggie. After each run I pulled the clutch and replaced any steel that was burned black in spots or warped and any fiber that was wiped or that I just didn't like the looks of. Usually this ended up being 3 to 6 steels and a couple fibers per run. Which ones varied, but trended towards the middle ones because they get hotter. I suppose that ended up being about a clutch per race day.
With the "low" first you should be able to run the taller gearing and still get off the line well. You should be running quite a bit more mph with the turbo because the harder it works the harder it pulls.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted December 28, 2011 10:55 PM
That sounds like a lot of work, and would take quite a bit of the fun out of it for me. Was that a single stage or multi that was in Rickeys bike?
I have a single stage in dads and mine that have my own version of a "multi conversion kit". been running them that way since 09. 2 arms are free, and 2 have hold back springs to delay them. the remaining 2 are removed. I have an idea to be able to use the other 2 as an additional stage, but havent got around to trying it yet. we run light springs and throw the lever on the hit and the clutch does the work, not the left hand. took some setting up, but has been working ok with a 2 step. Im usually trying to tweak the clutch tune after a couple runs looking for et, but if left alone the bikes run pretty consistent, and dad actually goes rounds bracket racing. hes gone 2 days without even pulling the clutch cover, but thats a low hp setup in a long chassis with at least 15 min cool down between runs. hot lapping kills the steels pretty quick! we also have thicker steel plates from Cycle Concepts that seem to withstand more abuse. 2.3 and 2.6mm. i try to run those in the bottom/middle of the pack and finish it off with 2s and or 1.6s depending on what I need to get the air gap correct
I actually didnt pull the clutch once the wknd I ran it on low boost. I set the static up pretty stiff before hand to make sure i had enough clamping force with only 4 arms on the snowflake, and was just trying to get the power to match what the clutch needed. setting up the 2 step, how many events to kill out of how many events, fuel and spark or spark only...finding the sweet spot between revving past and not banging violently... trying to build boost with antilag. I had enough on the go without messing with the clutch
Im also going to look into getting a zx14 clutch to fit if its not going to be an extensive session of machining. i would really like to get a larger clutch pack in so its not as high maintenance.
REALLY excited to try the bike at full boost (kid in candy store)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Oz Booster
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Posts: 230
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posted December 29, 2011 01:10 AM
Doug thanks for sharing your experiance with the Kawasaki rods , definitely has me reconsidering my options
Scott have you considered a slider ? my understanding is there easier on clutches
let you know for sure in another month 
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dougmeyer
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posted December 29, 2011 06:32 AM
Well, that was 11 years ago, and there have been some more clutch options developed, but be realistic, you're creating a no-bar bike with 2-400 hp on tap at the hit. One of three things must happen when you turn the throttle- the tire spins, the clutch slips, or the bike goes up. I think we can all agree that slipping the clutch is the best option, and probably the least expensive in the long run. Bikes like yours are really fun to ride and tune, heck I'm having a lot of fun just talking about it.
Work? You just wait.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted December 29, 2011 12:12 PM
Im prepared to take on some work . pulling the clutch every pass is pushing it though lol
Not the slightest bit interested in a slider, but I am very interested in the newer engine driven lock ups, and thinking about getting one of these
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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