KZScott
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posted August 26, 2011 08:07 PM
dry sump zx12r
sort of tested my dry sump tonight. its my first one so I just want to check to see if its working properly. I had to make the suction lines pretty long to use in a stock frame so I was a little worried about them being able to pull the oil from the pan.
my ecu is not hooked up yet, so with the plugs out i used the starter motor to spin everything over and run the oil pumps. the tank (i put in 7 litres) was almost drained when the suction pumps started working (oil level visible in the clutch cover) and now it seems to keep the oil level halfway on the sight glass when its spinning over.
is this normal? I was under the impression that this would basically keep the pan "dry" and maybe it will with the motor actually running?
also what should be done with the case vent? Ive read that it should be left alone and not plugged, while other guys have told me to put a restrictor in it to get more vacuum pump effect
thx
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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almost_les
Zone Head
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posted August 26, 2011 08:13 PM
seems like the crank vent should be capped. otherwise its just pulling from the airbox killing off any vacuum.
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KZScott
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posted August 26, 2011 08:46 PM
Seb from NLR was one of the guys saying to leave it open. my vent is to apmosphere now. plugged that ram air leak a couple yrs ago
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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almost_les
Zone Head
Posts: 590
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posted August 26, 2011 08:50 PM
lol, like he knows anything about going fast...
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dougmeyer
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posted August 28, 2011 07:47 PM
Vent the case to the tank above the oil level (but below the top baffle) and the tank is then vented to the atmosphere.
If you want to create a lower pressure in the cases you can restrict the vent BUT I wouldn't try that without some instrumentation and data.
Hard to say if your sump level is "normal" without it running, but it will probably suck down. How big and how many are your scavenge lines?
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted August 29, 2011 06:43 PM
 Edited By: KZScott on 30 Aug 2011 02:45
Thank you Doug
running two 5/8 ID (-10) scavenge lines
3/4 ID -12 on the feed and return
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted August 30, 2011 02:41 PM
No reason it shouldn't work as expected.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 10, 2011 04:43 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 10 Sep 2011 12:49
Scott, the scavenge pump really wont work properly until the engine is running. It needs to be spinning much faster to suck the oil out of the pan and keep the pan empty.
The pan will be "dry" while the engine is running. You should see foamy frothy air and oil mix entering the tank.
Like Doug said, vent to the tank.
However, if you plan on letting the scavenge pumps pull a vacuum in the engine you will need a vacuum relief valve. Moroso makes a nice adjustable one that you can shim for 10"-30" of vacuum. Start off with 10" of vacuum first and play with it on the dyno. Depending on the total volume of all your scavenge pump stages and the speed that you spin them at along with the amount of blow-by the engine has will determine the level of vacuum you can generate. Because you are driving the scavenge stages off of the former water pump drive (assuming you are using a Daily Engineering pump) you cant change the rpm of the pump.
So you can only add scavenge stages.
Also, if you are going to pull more than about 5" of vacuum then you will need to turn all the lip seals around in the engine or they will limit the amount of vacuum you can build. The lip seals will also wear out faster because they get less lube as well. They now become a wearable item like the rings.
Engines respond differently to different levels of vacuum in the crank case. It depends on the ring package on the pistons. You should see a sweet spot with the vacuum that makes the most power. Typically rings that like a lot of vacuum are very thin low tension rings like we use in our SB 2.2 circle track engines and the road race engines. Those rings are made for and have to have vacuum in the crank case to even work properly. These bike rings are also similar. 2 ring and 3 ring pistons respond differently to vacuum.
The rings are not going to last as long with high amounts of vacuum.
I would also dyno test with a vacuum gauge on the bike so you can see whats going on. you can document the vacuum curve and use it for comparason later on to see how your rings are doing.
If you have any questions give me a shout at the shop. Competition CNC 860-274-0631 I'll try and help ya.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted September 11, 2011 07:25 AM
Edited By: KZScott on 11 Sep 2011 15:30
thank you Doug, Jim, now that I know a little more about it, I might play with this on a Mustang chassis dyno this winter. for now Ill just vent it normally.
ATM Im going through quite a learning curve with my Megasquirt2 ECU and havent even fired the bike up yet  so I need to keep things simple.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted September 11, 2011 05:45 PM
Nice setup Scott!
But, You might want to put your vent a little further from the rear tire. I'm just sayin'
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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ZRXDean
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posted September 12, 2011 08:18 AM
Holy crap! 
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CrotchRocket
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Bracket Racing with Betsy
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posted September 12, 2011 11:26 AM
Yeah what Doug said...
Run a hose up through the tail & have the vent filter hang out by the tail light...
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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KZScott
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posted September 12, 2011 02:19 PM
thx guys, oil mist out the vents a concern? or just keeping the tire goo ect from a burnout off of it?
hard to tell in those pics, but i stuck a mid 90s(i think) zx6 hugger on there to try and keep things a little cleaner. it was kicking around the garage without a home. the chainguard hides some of it in this pic, but it goes down just about even with the top of the arm
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted September 12, 2011 02:57 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 12 Sep 2011 22:58
quote:
thx guys, oil mist out the vents a concern? or just keeping the tire goo ect from a burnout off of it?
hard to tell in those pics, but i stuck a mid 90s(i think) zx6 hugger on there to try and keep things a little cleaner. it was kicking around the garage without a home. the chainguard hides some of it in this pic, but it goes down just about even with the top of the arm
Nice Scott. I have been considering this one:
The swingarm for my 1287 doesn't have mounts, so I have to drill and tap for at least the chain guard anyway. The Mcinotosh setup is for mounting to one of their guards, so I think it would work out well.
Shane
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KZScott
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posted September 12, 2011 06:16 PM
the zx6 hugger is more squared off, i think it would look good with a slick if i go that route. i was looking at a couple aftermarket ones, and seeing how they would need modification to fit the chain guard i allready made last yr, i just went with free  drilled and tapped the arm on the brake side for some brackets. still not quite finished, but functional enough for now. bigger stuff Im worried about
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
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posted September 13, 2011 03:50 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 13 Sep 2011 11:52
How much $$ do you have tied up in that dry sump now? Looks very nice and expensive.
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CrotchRocket
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Bracket Racing with Betsy
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posted September 13, 2011 08:19 AM
Shane, dont do it !!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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KZScott
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posted September 13, 2011 02:01 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 13 Sep 2011 22:06
thx, but its definitely a budget build! 600ish for the dry sump pan and tank used IIRC. maybe 70 in hoses(hydraulic shop 300psi nylon braided hose) the expensive parts after the pan are the Russell hose ends. I sort of lost track as I did the filter relocator and fuel system at the same time. I get a pretty good deal at a local speed shop now (Hemi House) , so I didnt pay full price for that stuff.
this would be an example of one of the more expensive hose ends
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-610190/
great part is theyre reusable, I watched a couple youtube vids and decided to try it. its pretty easy after you do a few.
straights arent too bad
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-610040/
and something that will make your life easier, if you have both ends having a turn, get one end as a swivel end
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted September 13, 2011 02:57 PM
Shane, the pumps for the bikes are made bu Daily Engineering. There web site has all of them listed. 2 stages of scavenge and you use the engines stock pump for pressure.
They fit in place of the stock waterpump so then you need to use an electric waterpump.
Muzzy makes a nice pan and pump kit that comes with the clutch slave cylinder plate. You need a tank and to do all the hoses yourself.
One thing scott, you should have a small breather tank for the oil tank to vent to. the pump will move alot of air when it evacuates the crankcase and depending on the baffeling in the oil tank you may drip oil from the filters.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Shane661
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posted September 13, 2011 04:04 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Sep 2011 00:04
quote:
thx, but its definitely a budget build! 600ish for the dry sump pan and tank used IIRC. maybe 70 in hoses(hydraulic shop 300psi nylon braided hose) the expensive parts after the pan are the Russell hose ends. I sort of lost track as I did the filter relocator and fuel system at the same time. I get a pretty good deal at a local speed shop now (Hemi House) , so I didnt pay full price for that stuff.
this would be an example of one of the more expensive hose ends
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-610190/
great part is theyre reusable, I watched a couple youtube vids and decided to try it. its pretty easy after you do a few.
straights arent too bad
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-610040/
and something that will make your life easier, if you have both ends having a turn, get one end as a swivel end
$29 for a single hose end is pretty pricey, but since you got the other stuff cheap it more than balances out.
I think the setup for the 14 is over $2k. I am sticking with a conventional oiling system on mine, but I like the idea(s) behind the dry sump. 
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KZScott
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posted September 13, 2011 06:56 PM
Lucky theres only 4 of the big ones!
Ill keep a close eye on it Jim, if its an issue ill come up with something a little different. I think the baffling is pretty good, but this is the first one i have ever really looked at...
theres more in there than you can see thru the cover. naturally the first thing I did was take it apart
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
gilberjj
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posted September 16, 2011 12:12 AM
So..... What kinda oil are you going to run??? Hehe, we needed another oil thread!
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KZScott
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posted September 16, 2011 08:26 AM
Motul 300v 10 40
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted September 27, 2011 06:21 PM
so even with the curved breather tubes coming up close to the cover, i am getting oil splashed up in them. i may add some baffles to keep the oil from going up there and see how that works. the pan is being sucked dry when the bikes running had it up to a real 12000 rpm with my new ecu
("break in" oil)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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