quote:

---

Hey Pete,

Old dragracers like us surely remember Russ Collins using a Goldwing engine in a ill-fated dragbike, below is a few shots of the bike. I'm thinking Jim could build one faster and make it handle a tad better!
Those were the days when innovation was the key word and big kahunas were needed.

BTW: Did you ever get that care package I sent ya?

Dan

---

quote:

---

Smokin,

I agree, the mono block design is most likely lighter weight because of the shorter head bolts and has more rigidity.
The lack of a base gasket is a neg in my book. I'll trade off rigidity for more options on a build.
The head bolt design with the bolts threading into the deck like a typical domestic V8 is not good for performance. It puts the load on the deck and the cylinder walls and reduces clamping ability as well as the cylinder bore concentricity. You should bore and hone the zx14 block with a deck plate like a domestic V8 block. And that only helps.
The bolts that go threw the block into the upper crankcase half like the zx12r don't load the deck and cylinder walls at all. So head gasket clamping is improved due to the deck staying flat and a more concentric bore makes more power espically at higher rpms due to better ring seal.

The cylinder heads intake ports discharge co-efficiency is not good stock. Its a high tumble port and chamber. The heads velocity is low for the cfm that it flows. They are trying to give it a busa like mid-range, so that's the way its tuned. The cams are too thin and warp badly when hard face welded.. They messed up on that one. But that can be worked around.

The manufacturers must take into account what people are going to want to do to the bike after they bring it home. Suzuki has done this in many ways where Kawasaki has given little thought to it. I believe its the main reason the Busa sales have been way bigger than the zx12r or the zx14.

The 12r's biggest limitation is the starter gear. That cost 250cc of displacement or more, that the engine could have been built to.

The throttle bodies are too small on the gen 2 busas and the zx14. Again they traded peak power for mid-range torque.

Of course almost any of this can be changed. Except the zx12r starter gear. That gear is the primary reason I'm changing platforms. It limits the engine size to 1427cc. If i could make it a 1650+ cc engine then I'd be keeping it.

I think a zx14 is my likely choice at this point even thou its also more limited in displacement than a Busa.
The only chance a1580 zx14 will have of beating a 1650 busa is if it can be reved higher and move more air. This means the head needs major work. The runners will most likely need shortening and the ports MCSA will need to be large along with mammoth valves and the throttle bodies will need replacing. I doubt you can bore them big enough. Port taper is going to need to be increased big time.

But if done right i suspect a 1580 could make the power of a 1600cc+ busa.

My biggest concern is the bores at this point. The engine must have an 87mm bore. This creates hot spots between the cylinders and other problems like weakening the deck where the head bolt threads are.

I started on a zx14 project last year where we were going to put in the Darton MID sleeve system into the zx14. We put it on hold because it wouldn't have offered any bigger bore than 87mm that the stock block can be bored to. Although it would most likely have been more durable and sealed better in the head gasket area.

What they really need to do is realize that these big bore bikes aren't canyon carvers and make the bore spacing 15mm bigger between cylinders. That's 1.2" wider on each side.
We could then have 100mm bores and 50mm strokes and 14,000 rpm with a reliable 300+ hp on pump gas.

Who wouldn't pay $14,000 for that bike new.

Anyway, I'll stop dreaming now.

---

quote:

---

True you can have everything .. There is allways some kind of trade off ..
I have to go back to NHRA prostock a few years back when Mopar came back out with the Hemi head engine .. They just could not get it to work , the head had no tumble ( that has allways been a problem with the hemi engine ) The engine was allways called a dirty engine at low RPMs and was the reason it stopped in 1971 in passenger cars ... It's fine when force fed like a blower or turbo and still to this day 500 inch hemis rule top fuel .. But in prostock with nothing but a tunnel ram to feed fuel it was lacking ..Thank goodness they didn't give up and found a cure for the problem .. It wasn't the big money guys that fixed it , it was smaller race teams that found the problem and fixed it .. I feel it's a little to quick to give up on the zx14 and call it a dead duck . The 99 busa didn't come out of the box with 250 hp , it took years of R&D to make it what it is today .. The zx14 in 3 years has come a long way but it's far from over ..Someone , maybe you will find the magic button and that i'm sure of ...

---

quote:

---

Jim I have to say you certainly answered alot of questions in my head in regards to the ZX14 cylinder head design. I do agree as well,the obsession with makin the engines so friggin narrow,I mean an inch on both sides of the engine and the entire platform is changed from an aftermarket standpoint. Engine builders would salivate over something with meat between the bores. We can only wish though,I don't know if Kawasaki reads these pages but I remember talking to Doug Meyer at the Grudge Race a few years back and he mentioned that Kawasaki had the highest brand loyalty among the big 4 . In my opinion they just aren't as keen to what their loyal customers want,they are close but it seems that Suzuki is better at giving their customers what they want.I don't want a Busa and I think the 14 is a great bike but they could have made it a better platform to build on engine wise. I know that the Z-1/KZ platform was really the small block chevy of racing but Kawasaki let that slip away right into Suzukis hands. Suzuki copied that engine right down to the cam specs for their GS750 and they really have not looked back,Does this company want to try and level that playing field at all? Jim I hope you get a 14 and it has tha underdog status so any kind of build would be super interesting to me,I have alot of respect for your talents because your huge motored ZX12 seems to be a pretty reliable piece,not many people can actualy say that..I know you can and Karl can as well their is alot to be said in that ,good luck in whatever you get I will be looking forward to reading about it.

---

quote:

---

While I am very interested in the relative merits of these engine designs, ultimately the #'s at the track are of more concern. So far I don't think the performance limits of any large engine 12 or 14 have been fully explored in the LSR environment.

Jim, at what hp levels and rpm are you seeing cylinder sealing problems on the 14?

Shane

---

quote:

---

I looked at the starter gear problem on the zx12r and a 2 gear system could be made and then you reverse the polarity on the starter and the sprag has to be reversed etc. Believe me I've stared at that gear problem for more than 10 min.
But I don't have the time to develop it and the market is shrinking every day for zx12r stuff.

---

quote:

---

One thing I haven't heard about...what is it that limits the stroke on a 14?

Is 66.5 the limit...or just what is currently available?

---