Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 04:16 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 12:50
quote:
stock gen II Busas kick 14's
Hey Karl, this isn't The Smackhouse. 
In general, at the dragstrip anyway, the 14 is every bit as strong as a Gen II Busa, and it will clobber a Gen I. Stock motor, of couse.
LSR, Gen I Busa's rule the roost...
  
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chavcat
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posted October 10, 2009 04:54 AM
Nobody with any brains uses a 14 vs a Busa for dragracing/LSR unless you are a true Kawi owner
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 04:56 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 12:58
quote:
Nobody with any brains uses a 14 vs a Busa for dragracing/LSR unless you are a true Kawi owner
Or race AMA Dragbike Supersport...where near-stock engines rule. 
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chavcat
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posted October 10, 2009 05:00 AM
That is simply due to Suzuki dropping $ in these classes. Has nothing to do with ZX14 performance.
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 05:06 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 13:11
quote:
That is simply due to Suzuki dropping $ in these classes. Has nothing to do with ZX14 performance.
Yeah, you're right....the 14 is slow compared to any Busa.
If you think that stock motored 14's don't run with stock motored Gen 2 Busa's....well, you have a right to your opinion. 
The bottom line is, the Busa pretty much owns the racetrack once you start modding the engines. It is easier and cheaper to go fast on a Busa.
Shane
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chavcat
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posted October 10, 2009 05:14 AM
They simply do not. By the way the Gen II busa does have an inherent issue with the block such that you need to use the Gen 1 block for big motors.
Too bad on the integral block and crap cylinder head/cam on the 14. Terrible marketing blunder on both parts. Until these change racing will remain Busa dominated.
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 05:21 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 13:21
quote:
They simply do not. By the way the Gen II busa does have an inherent issue with the block such that you need to use the Gen 1 block for big motors.
Too bad on the integral block and crap cylinder head/cam on the 14. Terrible marketing blunder on both parts. Until these change racing will remain Busa dominated.
Yes, the Gen 2 Cylinders split...everyone knows that, right?
And, regarding stock motor bikes at the dragstrip...14 vs Gen II...you are simply wrong.
As for your assesment of Kawasaki marketing...give them call. I'm sure they could use your advice!
Shane
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chavcat
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posted October 10, 2009 05:26 AM
I would run a Gen II against a ZX14 anyday.
BTW - This will be the last year for the ZX14 Prostock bike also. Even the billet head does not solve the problem with this design.
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 05:29 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 13:30
quote:
I would run a Gen II against a ZX14 anyday.
BTW - This will be the last year for the ZX14 Prostock bike also. Even the billet head does not solve the problem with this design.
Yes, the ZX-14 Prostock was a failure. Ultimately, in the end, just as the 12R was, right? Too many design compromises, and not enough funding/teams, with both engines.
When you get your Gen II, let me know.
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chavcat
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posted October 10, 2009 05:39 AM
Yes both failed although given the technology advances in the last ~ 5 years it is surprising that the 14 perfomrnace is not signicfantly better that the orginal 12!. Given the lack of development time/ $ and teams such as VHR etc being involved in promoting modern engine designs etc I expect kawaski to drop the Prostock effort at the end of the year.
In the unlikely event I ever buy a Busa (I own a built ZX12R by the way) I will certainly look you up!
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 05:44 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 13:46
quote:
In the unlikely event I ever buy a Busa (I own a built ZX12R by the way) I will certainly look you up!
Cool! I also have a 12R. It will be going back together this winter.
Back on track...
I suspect you will be happy with a 14 for R&D, Jim. The cylinder head seems to be an enigma when it comes to making big power. Why go with a Busa...it is done to death and you will just be another Busa guy. The 14 will certainly be a challenge, and it is always more rewarding to make your own path...instead of following in the footsteps of others.
Shane
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entropy
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posted October 10, 2009 05:49 AM
I am not in touch with 1/4 these days, Shane i much more in touch so i bow to his thoughts,
but the stock gen II sure owns LSR.
kawasaki vs busa aside...
who thinks that for LSR, a heavily built Rocket III could have mojo potential in the naked class???
2400cc at 8.7:1 it supposedly puts out hp/tq 140/147 max rpm = 6000
I wonder how many rpm you could get that motor to pull???
with Jim's tweaking i betcha he could get 10000-11000 rpm outa it.
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 05:54 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 13:57
quote:
I am not in touch with 1/4 these days, Shane i much more in touch so i bow to his thoughts,
but the stock gen II sure owns LSR.
kawasaki vs busa aside...
who thinks that for LSR, a heavily built Rocket III could have mojo potential in the naked class???
2400cc at 8.7:1 it supposedly puts out hp/tq 140/147 max rpm = 6000
I wonder how many rpm you could get that motor to pull???
with Jim's tweaking i betcha he could get 10000-11000 rpm outa it.
There is already a Supercharged Rocket III that has run Maxton. It ran out of gear at 175 mph...but it had a tiny fairing.
Carpenter has done quite a bit of work with the Rocket III.
Regarding the Gen 2 in LSR, it has a few mph on an equal 14...I would say that is primarily due to aero's.
Shane
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chavcat
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posted October 10, 2009 06:02 AM
Karl - I think a Rocket III or something beside a Busa would be a very interesting project with unknown and pehaps unlimited marketing opportunity.
The problem with going with a 14 is not only cylinder head design but more importantly the Inherent integral block design severely limits any development. Unless Jim is interested in altering the upper case/block design completely (like the Muzzy Prostock effort) unlike a new motor such as your sugestion of the Rocket III etc. I beleive there is a very narrow window of development here.
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 06:07 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 14:08
What is the case design issue? RIght the now motor can go to 1581 on stock cases with a 3mm bore. Of course, if Jim is looking to do unlimited cc racing development he would definitely want to look elsewhere.
I hear a lot of complaints about the integral design (particularly from those who don't plan to build a 14), but I don't see the big issue. If you are pulling the crank, rods, pistons, trans, and cylinder head..I mean, you would have to send the cylinder out anyway. It is not as though you are boring and plating it yourself. Yeah...if you window the cases it will suck.
But hey, this is another threadjack.
Shane
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chavcat
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posted October 10, 2009 06:10 AM
Shane - you and I should discuss this issue elsewhere.
I would be very interested in another 'Jim project'.
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 06:10 AM
Email me: Shane at warp 12 racing dot com
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 06:14 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 14:15
Personally I think there is a much bigger market for ZX-14 cylinder heads than Rocket III stuff.
Why not the new VMax?? I would love to see what that motor could do! With a chain drive, that could perhaps be a force in unfaired LSR classes.
Shane
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entropy
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posted October 10, 2009 06:55 AM
i agree there is prob a very, very small market for rocket 3 heads, somewhat more for v-max.
all moot for me, i'm too broke for any new projects, so i hope jim picks an interesting one.
Shane, i'd love to see you get another couple mastercards and seriously go into yr motor this winter.
I'm disappointed in the results i have seen from the built 14's so far.
I betcha YOU, with yr methodical/non-biased approach (and new Mastercards) could do better.
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Shane661
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posted October 10, 2009 07:45 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Oct 2009 17:11
quote:
i agree there is prob a very, very small market for rocket 3 heads, somewhat more for v-max.
all moot for me, i'm too broke for any new projects, so i hope jim picks an interesting one.
Shane, i'd love to see you get another couple mastercards and seriously go into yr motor this winter.
I'm disappointed in the results i have seen from the built 14's so far.
I betcha YOU, with yr methodical/non-biased approach (and new Mastercards) could do better.
I'm also not impressed with what I have seen from the built 14's. But I think there is more to those poor results than the platform....
I think it's a good platform to explore, and I think that ultimately it will prove to be very fast. But the development is moving at a slow pace. Still, I somewhat doubt that it will ever produce the power per cc that the 12R does...fortunately, it has a lot more displacement to play with.
Hey, if you buy my VF1000R I'll build myself a 14 motor...deal?
Shane
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KZScott
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posted October 10, 2009 09:17 AM
Jim you should really get a 14 for your next project if you are planning on getting rid of your 12. Im guessing that eventually the sleeved offset block/case will eventually catch on. if you can design a modified stock head to match the offset bores it would probly be much more likely to sell than a new billet head. see how big you can go with stroke. if you can get displacement up there around 1650cc with a great head design and big cams, you should be able to get some of the busa guys to jump the fence.
if you keep your 12, why not stroke it further and put cr up through the roof like Karls? there have been a few 12s with a 63mm crank i do believe.... can you go more?
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dubious
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posted October 10, 2009 09:55 AM
Edited By: dubious on 10 Oct 2009 18:00
if you want something different, a different market niche, and a challenge get a 14.
If you want to jump on the bandwagon, join the busa camp.
that was meant as a constructive stab....
For doubling I have really enjoyed my 1st gen vmax.
They can be had cheap, are realtively quick for a cruiser, comfy, and the steering geometry isn't affected as much with the old dual shock rear , compared to a mono shock with a passenger.
Mine is getting zx14 forks, brakes and frt wheel, and 17 or 18" rear over the winter.
Time to put a real front end on it, real breaks, and dump the bias plies for radials.
LOL race tech suggests 1.2 kg/mm fork springs for a 330 lb payload. ( 2 up)
They come with .38 kg/mm .... what a joke...
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BrooklynNYZX12
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posted October 10, 2009 04:39 PM
Edited By: BrooklynNYZX12 on 11 Oct 2009 00:41
Jim,I just purchased a new 14 and I still own my '03 12. While I still love the 12 the 14 is really an impressive bike and the big difference to me is comfort. The 14 motor is so smooth it is a pleasure to ride,the 12 was okay in that department but the 14 is light years ahead in my opinion. Comfortable seat,silk smooth motor and compliant suspension and killer brakes...oh I can't leave this out the 14 doesn't crush yer nuts! I have done one 2 up ride about 200 miles and alot of city commuting and it's impressed me so much that although I had thoughts of drag racing it I rediscovered the weekend rides I kinda forgot about. Now my dilemma is this :keep my 12 for drag racing or sell it/trade it in so I can buy another 14 to race.The 12 has a special place in my heart and its still a better looking bike than the 14 but the 14 is better looking once you ride it.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted October 11, 2009 05:39 AM
quote:
sorry to say, the 14 ain't gonna kick any Busa ass anywhere, unless some magic happens somewhere. 
stock gen II Busas kick 14's
built gen I Busas kick everything
I'm still having fun with my 12, but if i wanted to go really fast, gen1 busa is the ticket.
hard words but true...
I'm thinking that the 2.3l rocket 3 would make a VERY interesting project, run naked 1650 class LSR, build the shit outa that motor, get 300hp? why not?
Hey, you might be on to somthing there Karl. A Rocket ! But its s tiny market. How many do they sell and how many are going to want to be upgraded to stupid power ?
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Shane661
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posted October 11, 2009 05:40 AM
quote:
How many do they sell and how many are going to want to be upgraded to stupid power ?
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