entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 28, 2009 09:21 AM
WS,
I have no idea what went into Darkfalcon's simulation. He asked me to make a buncha measurements, then a bit later he started making suggestions which immediately jumped me from hp =220's to hp=230's. Very private guy, no idea who he is, and unfortunately he no longer seems to be on SH.org or answer his emails.
I am trying 443/415's based on Jim's advice (which I routinely "take to the bank") 
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted October 29, 2009 06:13 PM
Well, I have the ECU mod & 600 more rpms, my CR ~ 13.5 and my head was ported by a master so maybe 3-4 more hp might be too conservative?
quote:
Scott,
i have had cams ground at Web and Megacycle, latest ones just arrived from Megacycle. Great service from both.
Megabyte,
3-4 hp for Muzzy cams may be about right depending upon porting state, CR and at what rpm you want yr hp. They are about as big as you should go without bigger buckets.
I am thoroughly convinced Muzzy cams are a solid solution for a bike which sees street duty.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted October 29, 2009 07:50 PM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 30 Oct 2009 03:52
The two best cam designers generally available to the motorcycle industry are Jim Dewer at Megacycle and John Andrews at Andrews Cams.I think Web is fine but they don't do as much R&D. Jim and John have both been doing this work professionally since before there were computers to help them. My first record holding Z-1 had custom grind Andrews cams in it in 1977.
For a 12, I recommend that you leave the cam design to Megacycle and those with the resources to pay them to design the best possible cam that will live. I think that would be the Muzzy unless you want to go withe the bigger buckets.
One might suspect that some design work done by the Kawasaki Factory Race group in Akashi would have found its way into the Muzzy organization and their products. I'm just sayin.....
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WRECKSHOP
Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted October 30, 2009 07:48 AM
Thanks Doug for the info. You are always a great help around here !!!
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 31, 2009 07:56 PM
Karl, did you get that busa grind cam in yet? 
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 31, 2009 10:11 PM
quote:
Karl, did you get that busa grind cam in yet?
yup, gottem in, and Andy pressed a set of APE adj spkts on last week. ready to roll.
I'll test em this month; maybe sooner, maybe just a tad later, depending on the leak down after yesterday's dyno session.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted November 01, 2009 05:17 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 1 Nov 2009 13:25
quote:
Okay, Karl I see which cams your are currently running but what was Dark Falcons Simulation and theory of running your current cam setup ? Doug Meyer and Jim can you all chime in on this int/exh cycle and what is the best way to approach cam setup on a inline 4cylinder motorcycle motor ? Please....
I use Dynomation, Pipemax, EAP, and Performance Trends software packages. And they don't always agree.
I find Dynomation to show trending very well when changing cylinder head specs and cam specs. The dyno seems to backup what I've seen in the simulations.
There's nothing like grinding and trying cams, but that gets expensive.
I've had some lengthy conversations with Jim at Megacycle about cam profiles and 4 valve shim under bucket cams in general. Jim has been nice enough to share his cam grinding data with us at Competition CNC so we can import the exact cam profile data files right into Dynomation. This gives us the exact valve acceleration rates as well as exact deg/lift points all the way around the lobe when doing simulations. This has really helped with simulation accuracy.
I can tell you that in general matching the max valve window area with the ports MCSA is very important. So lift is directly proportionate to the porting and the intake ports MCSA.
The duration is linked more to stroke and swept volume as are the seat timings and lobe centerlines.
The problem with these bucket style heads is that the max valve velocity is dictated by the diameter of the bucket. And the acceleration rate of the valves are limited because there isn't any multiplying of the acceleration from a fulcrum or rocker arm. On a scale of 1 to 5 in dynomation, a V8 engine with a hot race cam and a rocker arm ratio of 1.7 to 1 has an acceleration rate of say 4.5 and the shim under bucket big busa cam (.443/257) from Megacycle is a 1.5.
Dynomation gives you this acceleration factor when you plug in the cams profiles. So at high rpm the valves opening and closing acceleration rates are very slow. This is good for valve train stability but hurts high rpm performance.
I think shim under bucket is nearing the end of its lifespan in sport bikes. We should start to see finger followers re-infiltrate the sport bike engines again very shortly.
BMW has just come out with a modern lightweight finger follower engine in the new 1k sport bike. I expect the big 4 to follow suit soon.
Its kind of a full circle going back to finger followers, but this time advanced lightweight materials are needed to rev to 15,000 + rpms.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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