entropy
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posted August 16, 2009 11:20 PM
quote:
I love it. But, I agree with Jim. Let's skim those pistons just a bit. No carbon is perfect, but contact eats hp.
I don't really have any concern about gas in the oil. Alcohol yes, gasoline no.You'd have to be pouring gas in there and washing down the cylinders to to have a problem. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Until we get some BSFC #'s to plan a direction, we do what works and the gas worked. 
yep, the AF= 12.2max did work.
I will take .002-.003"-ish off the areas showing contact.
Andy should have the head back to me this week; then new rings & bearings, assemble at (hopefully) cam CL's = 102/102.
Should be on the dyno by end of Aug-ish; i wanna try incrementally adding advance @ 10K+ (thx Jim!), see how much it'll take.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 17, 2009 08:48 AM
Karl,
Vince is telling you to look at the bottom of the piston so you can tell what the max operating temp of the piston has been. They make special paint for this as well.
Basically with non synthetic oil you want to see a light tan color to a light brown color.
A dark brown is a sign of oil starting to coke up on the bottom of the piston. and anything dark brown or black is oil coking and means the piston is getting too hot, usually due to a lean a/f ratio.
Now, with full synthetic oil its a bit trickier. And its less reliable as a piston temp indicator because full synthetic oils have a much, much, higher coking point.
So with that said you should see no color or maybe a light tan at most when using full synthetic oils.
The paints are the best way to keep tabs on this because synthetics are hard to read, if not impossible.
But because you data log and can monitor your a/f ratio each run and with an a/f ratio below 13 to 1 you shouldn't have to worry about it at all.
Nitrous and turbo engines really need to keep tabs on max piston temps. An overheated piston may look fine to the eye but may have a soft dome. And with synthetic oils its hard to read them.
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dougmeyer
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posted August 18, 2009 08:00 PM
No color under there means we're safe! We have some wiggle room to add the advance which might burn a little more of that fuel, which may or may not yield a little more power. I still want to work on figuring out BSFC. That will tell us a lot.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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dubious
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posted August 18, 2009 10:47 PM
Jim,
where do you get the paint for underside the pistons?
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 19, 2009 01:13 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 19 Aug 2009 10:13
forensics on Loring motor
leakdown
before loring
19-Jul-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=2%, #2=3%, #3=2.5%, #4=2%
after loring
NEW head: leakdown after Loring (cold motor): #1= 2%, #2=5%, #3= 4%, #4=4% (added a lil oil to #2, #4)
cold cranking pressure
before loring
5-Jul-09 NEW head: before startup: #1-310psi; #2-315psi; #3-315psi; #4-315psi (CR = 15.6:1; CL = 105.2/105.2)
after loring (only tested #1)
5-Jul-09 NEW head: after Loring: #1-310psi; #2-----psi; #3------psi; #4-----psi (CR = 15.6:1; CL = 105.2/105.2)
Rings as installed:
2-Jul-09 "new rings: pistons #725592, block A1331
Upper #1-.014, #2-.014, #3-.013, #4-.014
2nd #1-.019, #2-.018, #3-.017, #4-.018
Rings after a bunch of dyno work and Loring runs:
19-Aug-09 "measured rings out of Loring motor: pistons #725592, block A1331
Upper #1-.014, #2-.015, #3-.013, #4-.014
2nd #1-.020, #2-.018, #3-.019, #4-.019"
seems the top ring didn't wear at all, but the 2nd ring opened up a thou or so.
hmmmmmm.....
re-use the Loring rings or throw a new set in?
hmmmmmm.....
cam chain:
almost 100% silky smooth, no kinks, manual CCT seems to be working WAY better than OEM.
wrist pins:
easily pushed 'em out with fingers, no galling
vertical scratches on cyl walls:
no new ones. this is a first.
main and rod bearings:
look like they always do, i should stop replacing them.
cam & buckets:
no apparent wear
valves:
no hangup at all when removing (no mushrooming of tip), 60-65# seat pressure seems to work.
guides:
no slop at all
It seems to me that I tore down a VERY healthy motor, but hey, it's August and i have to do 2009 build #8!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 19, 2009 03:33 AM
quote:
No color under there means we're safe! We have some wiggle room to add the advance which might burn a little more of that fuel, which may or may not yield a little more power. I still want to work on figuring out BSFC. That will tell us a lot.
Doug, I've been catching up here last week. I'll have some time to work on that later this week. I'll call you so we can discuss it.
I'll find out where the paint comes from.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 19, 2009 03:34 AM
Karl, looks good.
You knew there was nothing wrong you just wanted some quality garage time with the barbies. 
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CompetitionCNC.com
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted August 19, 2009 07:27 PM
I am very interested in using temp indicating paints.
Do you mean something like this?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3261k93
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 20, 2009 01:54 AM
quote:
Karl, looks good.
You knew there was nothing wrong you just wanted some quality garage time with the barbies.
hey Jim, those slutty Barbies got all worked up this morning.
I ball honed the cylinders, about 80 quick, slippery in-out thrusts per cylinder, lube slinging all over the place.
99% of the vertical scratches are gone, only gained about .0001" bore diameter.
All that slippery thrusting had the GB's moaning.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 20, 2009 04:50 AM
quote:
I am very interested in using temp indicating paints.
Do you mean something like this?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3261k93
Yep, exactly.
Get the assortment of crayons in 50 deg steps. Make lines across the bottom of the piston from one side to the other parallel to the wrist pin with the hottest temp in the center and work outward like zebra stripes.
Start with a 250,350,450,550,500,400,300
Make sure to write down the exact order of the stripes for later reference.
This is how we adjust the piston squirter volume to keep the pistons at a good temp but not add too much windage to the crankcase.
You guys are prying all the secrets right out of me...  I wouldn't do well in an interrogation.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Y2KZX12R
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posted August 20, 2009 04:53 AM
quote:
quote:
Karl, looks good.
You knew there was nothing wrong you just wanted some quality garage time with the barbies.
hey Jim, those slutty Barbies got all worked up this morning.
I ball honed the cylinders, about 80 quick, slippery in-out thrusts per cylinder, lube slinging all over the place.
99% of the vertical scratches are gone, only gained about .0001" bore diameter.
All that slippery thrusting had the GB's moaning.
Now put that damn thing back together Karl. We can't have you going any faster, I haven't even matched your speed as it is. Damn it.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 20, 2009 06:42 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Karl, looks good.
You knew there was nothing wrong you just wanted some quality garage time with the barbies.
hey Jim, those slutty Barbies got all worked up this morning.
I ball honed the cylinders, about 80 quick, slippery in-out thrusts per cylinder, lube slinging all over the place.
99% of the vertical scratches are gone, only gained about .0001" bore diameter.
All that slippery thrusting had the GB's moaning.
Now put that damn thing back together Karl. We can't have you going any faster, I haven't even matched your speed as it is. Damn it.
Jim,
you have more knowledge/building ticks in yr lil pinky, than I have in my whole fat body.
I gotta keep working on my heap 24X7 to have any chance, yup.
If yr bike had higher CR, been lowered and fitted with a 6" arm, it prob woulda kicked my poor heap to the curb.
Next round in 2010, woo-HOO.
(great to have competition within TFA!!!)
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dubious
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Posts: 8442
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posted August 20, 2009 07:59 AM
quote:
forensics on Loring motor
leakdown
before loring
19-Jul-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=2%, #2=3%, #3=2.5%, #4=2%
after loring
NEW head: leakdown after Loring (cold motor): #1= 2%, #2=5%, #3= 4%, #4=4% (added a lil oil to #2, #4)
cold cranking pressure
before loring
5-Jul-09 NEW head: before startup: #1-310psi; #2-315psi; #3-315psi; #4-315psi (CR = 15.6:1; CL = 105.2/105.2)
after loring (only tested #1)
5-Jul-09 NEW head: after Loring: #1-310psi; #2-----psi; #3------psi; #4-----psi (CR = 15.6:1; CL = 105.2/105.2)
Rings as installed:
2-Jul-09 "new rings: pistons #725592, block A1331
Upper #1-.014, #2-.014, #3-.013, #4-.014
2nd #1-.019, #2-.018, #3-.017, #4-.018
Rings after a bunch of dyno work and Loring runs:
19-Aug-09 "measured rings out of Loring motor: pistons #725592, block A1331
Upper #1-.014, #2-.015, #3-.013, #4-.014
2nd #1-.020, #2-.018, #3-.019, #4-.019"
seems the top ring didn't wear at all, but the 2nd ring opened up a thou or so.
hmmmmmm.....
re-use the Loring rings or throw a new set in?
hmmmmmm.....
cam chain:
almost 100% silky smooth, no kinks, manual CCT seems to be working WAY better than OEM.
wrist pins:
easily pushed 'em out with fingers, no galling
vertical scratches on cyl walls:
no new ones. this is a first.
main and rod bearings:
look like they always do, i should stop replacing them.
cam & buckets:
no apparent wear
valves:
no hangup at all when removing (no mushrooming of tip), 60-65# seat pressure seems to work.
guides:
no slop at all
It seems to me that I tore down a VERY healthy motor, but hey, it's August and i have to do 2009 build #8!
Karl, this is excellent news!
As much as it sux to tear down a perfect motor, ther will be no anxiety, and now you have proof of what to do in the right direction.
Many people have direct evidense and lessons from what they did wrong, but not many have that for wjhat they do right. Meaning they always inspect it after it blows up
in essence what i am trying to say is you are being proactive, and that says allot about your character!
I like it! 
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 20, 2009 08:06 AM
dubious,
i appreciate your comments!
I think it could easily be said that i am over the top obsessive/compulsive about tearing down the motor, peeking & tweaking. But it seems I am always in my garage with no one there to guide me, so i need to keep asking on this forum, then peeking and tweaking...
little by little progress is apparently being made.
have you and carl made the dcision to come to Texas? 80+ spots are already gone; seems like 10-12 new folks per day are signing up.
we hope you guys come down, yup!
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dubious
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Posts: 8442
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posted August 20, 2009 08:37 AM
Edited By: dubious on 20 Aug 2009 16:41
oops double post
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted August 20, 2009 08:41 AM
quote:
I think it could easily be said that i am over the top obsessive/compulsive about tearing down the motor, peeking & tweaking. But it seems I am always in my garage with no one there to guide me, so i need to keep asking on this forum, then peeking and tweaking...
little by little progress is apparently being made.
I am in the same boat as you, except no progress is apparnetly being made with me...LOL
Due to business reasons I can not commit at this time, and likely it will be too late when I can.
Its a 1700 mile drive (each way!) and I am going to make a vacation of it when I do it, meaning I will bring the dirt bike with me and do some riding in California and Arizona, as well as some sight seeing. I have never been that far south and want to enjoy the drive and enjoy all of the experience.
I just got kicked in the nuts with more delays on the bike and am ready to kick it into the shed out back... I have been super patient knowing that forcing things just doesn't work.
But am at my wits end and really getting tired of the BS and poor services from several facilities that I have had to endure.
It will have to be next spring, or next fall I am afriad.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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