entropy
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posted May 25, 2009 08:49 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 25 May 2009 16:55
Battery voltage monitor
I have finally solved my charging issue (magnetic switch was fukkered), but also added a display suggested by ZXAlan just for my peace of mind.
Pricey lil bastid but when i fire up the motor and see charging voltage and oil pressure are both GTG, I feel better. 
motor off:
motor on:
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tcchin
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posted May 25, 2009 10:00 AM
Which magnetic switch??
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entropy
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posted May 25, 2009 10:14 AM
Edited By: entropy on 25 May 2009 18:15
quote:
Which magnetic switch??
The 12 has a magnetic switch for the starter in back of the battery which also has a 30A fuse built in. The reg/rec output goes thru that unit on its way to the positive battery terminal.
The set of charging diagnostic sheets you provided to me a year? ago lead me to check that unit! Fuse was good, but one side showed signs of severe over heating.
Good on Dr Chin! 
I was hoping that having the charging system up to snuff (what the hell does "up to snuff" mean??) would help my hp.
The gauge showed steady 14.1V on the dyno  , but alas & alack, no increase in hp. 
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psycho1122
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posted May 27, 2009 07:45 AM
Entropy;
Can you share where you obtained this nice little tidbit?!?
Thanks!
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entropy
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posted May 27, 2009 07:52 AM
Edited By: entropy on 27 May 2009 15:53
http://www.digitalmeter.com/cgi-bin/webshop.cgi?config=configspc.txt
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Shane661
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posted May 27, 2009 07:57 AM
Karl, regarding your hunt for lost hp...
Was this just a one-time dyno session with great numbers, or?? Did you ever see the increased hp on the track?
I just can't imagine that you lost the hp and can't find it!
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psycho1122
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posted May 27, 2009 08:09 AM
Thank You!
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entropy
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posted May 27, 2009 11:03 AM
quote:
Thank You!
It is expensive but I am getting to enjoy walking up to the bike and seeing battery level; just sort of comforting. I'm leaving it hooked up full time to see if it drains the battery, so far over 4 days it may have dropped from 12,8 to 12.7...
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entropy
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posted May 27, 2009 11:32 AM
quote:
Karl, regarding your hunt for lost hp...
Was this just a one-time dyno session with great numbers, or?? Did you ever see the increased hp on the track?
I just can't imagine that you lost the hp and can't find it!
5 different dyno days at 3 different cam CL's, 4 times on Andy's dyno, once on Johnny Cheese's. all showed #'s commensurate w/the CL's
If it was a one time fluke i wwould have laughed it off a year ago
never had it on the track at the big dyno numbers, did the miracle build in Nov 07, pwr went S in Feb 08
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whitehendrix
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posted May 27, 2009 09:46 PM
now, just my 1AM rambling here, but in a way, just thinking off the top of my head, i'd think that a functioning charging system would create no HP gain as an electrical load translates to a parasitic mechanical load via magnetic flux. thus why a heavy load on an alternator can stall it's source of rotational power. it's fairly proportional as well, but will come to a point to where the alternator will actually freewheel as the flux is so degradated from the vector angle surpassing 90* that it just won't keep up.
maybe solar power on the 12... hahahaaaa.. no parasitic losses then!!
i'm sure you know this, but just for those who may not, the very very best way to monitor leakage current to a ground or load is simply with an ammeter.. not by monitoring voltage. thats deceiving at best as the battery tends to try and fight that. however, if all is "off" and you hook up a (or slap on a clamp-on ) ammeter and notice anything other than microamps or 00.000 ADC, depending on what the value is, you've got something thats pulling power.
it could be a recitfier diode taking a shit, leaking current to the case or to the stator coil, could be grimey contacts and corrosion/carbon leaking power to a load or gnd.. could be something burnt.
remember, when you burn anything, it turns to carbon.. carbon is conductive. (think starter brushes or similar object)
something i learned when learning to repair electronics is to remove the burnt part of a printed circuit board. they're usually a glass-epoxy wafer.. when you heat em up, they carbonize. that shit will arc over in an instant depending on the equipment.. like a TV where high voltage is present, ot an amp, where 80VAC rails exist with HUGE amperage values.
ok.. i'm tired.
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ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted May 27, 2009 09:59 PM
I think Karl was thinking the possible power losses were related to the charging system being unable to supply sufficient power to properly energize the coils, injectors, fuel pump, etc., at full load on the dyno. The mechanical parasitic losses should be the same with a permanent magnet alternator, whether it's generating current or not.
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whitehendrix
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posted May 27, 2009 10:09 PM
ahh.. gotcha.. i figured as much tho.. and it does makes sense.. too bad it wasn't that simple
as far as a pemanent magnet alternator, i'm almost 100% sure flux density Vs load will retain the same mechanical loading properties as a synchronous field or externally exited gen/alt would. i'd have to do a bit of research.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted May 27, 2009 10:40 PM
I thought permanent magnet alternators were fixed output devices, whereas field coil alternators were variable output devices, and drag is proportional to output. Then again, I'm mechanical, not electrical... I couldn't find my commutator with both hands and a flashlight.
All I know is that when our battery shorted out during qualifying a couple weeks ago, the engine was misfiring like crazy and the motor had trouble hitting redline, all for no apparent reason . Once the bike failed to refire in the hot pit, the reason became quite apparent. A new battery fixed everything.
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whitehendrix
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posted May 27, 2009 10:51 PM
Edited By: whitehendrix on 28 May 2009 06:52
it's amazing what a dying battery will do.
you're 100% right on the outputs, they're also variable by speed. the field coil output is relavent to the rotational speed (lines of flux being cut) and the field's strength (V in to the coil)
load tho, even in a permanent magnet alternator will change depending on load.. think of a cordless drill motor.. when you let of the trigger, it instantly stops. this is called dynamic braking and it's speed and force is directly related to the resistance across the terminals.. when power is applied, its a motor.. when power is removed, in transforms to a generator and therefore has a voltage output. the switch you just let off of shorts the motor out, thus loading the "generator" to the point of instant stall.. you'll notice too you can't even really turn the thing by hand but withthe battery out and the trigger pulled in, the circuit is open and the motor and chuck spin more freely.
dynamic braking is the primary control used in multiaxis robotics (servos) and pretty much any speed control out in industry. big old synchronous motors that had cam-switch starters (the ones the operator had to crank to build speed) that cut in (or out) resistance to the rotor to build speed and torque independant of the stator voltage.. a large 3460V motor could just turn on and stay on (within reason) and the operator just dialed the resistance down to accellerate the motor.
crazy stuff.
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted May 27, 2009 11:02 PM
I think you've used too many of those new-fangled cordless drills with built-in spindle brakes. The old-skule Craftsman electric drill motors (with polished aluminum cases!) would take a while to spin down from speed after the trigger was released. Not that I don't believe in eddy current forces - why some of my favorite dynos use them - it's just that most modern drills have some sort of spindle brake device. I'm aware of the load change with speed in permanent magnet alternators (power = force x velocity, or whatever the angular equivalent is), but my point was that I wasn't sure if the load/rpm profile would change if the alternator was broken and not producing AC current.
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whitehendrix
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posted May 27, 2009 11:21 PM
Edited By: whitehendrix on 28 May 2009 07:27
haha.. i've used a good bit of power tools, including the classic drill you mention.. but if i'm not mistaken, isn't that a plug-in drill?
most cordless drills i know of use dynamic braking tho to my knowledge.. as far as eddy currents, those are stationary magnetic fields.. almost don't apply to dynamic braking.. ALmost..lol dynamic braking is directly related to applied resistance.. as well, the reasoning behind my saying that all was to tie in a stator being loaded with a power draw (more load= more in parallel=less resistance=more current draw) and a motor utilizing dynamic braking to stop. kinda the same thing.. only dynamic braking is just that.. to brake the rotor. applying an electrical load isn't an intentional mechanical load but ends up as one eventually..lol
you know as much as most electrical engineers and probably 99.8% of "electricians" in the field. i have no dobt about that. if i were to ask even the guys i had when i was an EE what eddy currents were, they'd have to get back to me on that..lol
anyways.. long story short.. a permanent magnet generator/alternator will see parasitic mechanical losses with electrical load.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted May 27, 2009 11:42 PM
Here's an eddy current tie-in for ya: Back when I used to actually design cool stuff, we used eddy current dampers to control the rate of deployment of the solar array 'wings' on satellites. A viscous damper would freeze solid in LEO (low earth orbit), so we had to use something that would not be affected by thermal extremes. The eddy current dampers we used looked a lot like the Scotts/Ohlins rotary dampers that we were discussing. If you have an extra couple or ten grand sitting around, you should try using a Mil-spec eddy current steering damper on your ZX-7! That would be shit-hot! Way cooler than those electro-mechanical variable rate things that Honda and Suzuki are using.
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entropy
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posted May 28, 2009 01:11 AM
you guys have totally lost me.
somewhere did you answer the Q that if you simply disconnected the reg/rec from the battery would the alternator drag the motor less???
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Shane661
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posted May 28, 2009 04:27 AM
quote:
you guys have totally lost me.
somewhere did you answer the Q that if you simply disconnected the reg/rec from the battery would the alternator drag the motor less???
I saw someone post something like that on 12R.org....
Far too mysterious for my simple mind...I need to see the dyno comparisons.
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osti33
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posted May 28, 2009 05:49 AM
quote:
you guys have totally lost me.
+1
Me too!! 
That is a cool little gizmo Karl. 
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entropy
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posted May 28, 2009 05:53 AM
quote:
quote:
you guys have totally lost me.
+1
Me too!!
That is a cool little gizmo Karl.
it IS a cool lil gizmo, although $50 is a bit much; maybe you could search in your local yard sales...
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narider
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posted May 28, 2009 07:48 AM
Had a big thing written out for you Karl, but as usual I'm not signed in enough to read or write regulary and should refrain from bbeing on here as it just annoys me that I don't sign in before I write or copy what ever I write befire I send it.
Anyways....
Long and short of it was: consider logging your voltage (blue and orange traces below on my '76 Sportster with total loss battery system).
Very beneficial when used to compare anomolies in your lambda and load traces if you're logging them.
Good seeing you at Texas and look forward to your Maxton return,
Todd
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entropy
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posted May 28, 2009 09:29 AM
Todd,
I'm gonna have to cogitate on this, a whole buncha info!
Thanks!
I will definitely make it back to Maxton one O' these days, great event, great folks.
BUT, i do hope i'll see you and Deb at Loring???
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osti33
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posted May 28, 2009 09:45 AM
Good info Todd. Thanks for posting it.
Good seeing you and Deb at Texas as well.
Ryan
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narider
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posted May 28, 2009 12:07 PM
Tell ya what Karl, I wont make you feel bad about having to take time to cogitate the data if you don't make me feel bad about having to look up the word cogitate! ;-)
I have an advantage with a Webster's dicitionary available to me, so here's a chart or two from the data that might help you visualize the coil drop you see on my log between the 8 second and 20 second area. By doing random charts you can start seeing patterns between the collected data and do comparisons in small changes made to see the effects a little more clearly.
In your case you may of only needed a voltage trace to see your charging system lacking intermittenlty before it took a complete shit. It's even nicer when you have it on the dyno and load it down or run it down the road to see changes like this, but sometimes only heavy vibration and jarring bumps/shifts can show a switch going bad before it quits altogether.
Anytime you can get (frivilous?) data you don't think you need when all is going well, it ends up paying off when the time comes that you find something you don't know if it was like that to begin with or not.
Anyways,
Gauranteed to see us at Loring and glad to know you're going to make it... like Maxton, we'll be there early and we'll leave there late.
Ryan, as always great seeing you also. You making the Maine Mega Mile as well?
Todd
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