KZScott
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posted April 11, 2009 10:00 AM
fitted rings last night, and picked up a degree kit from a buddy.
CR measured 12.9:1 Im quite happy with that as its a good jump from stock, but a touch higher wouldnt have pissed me off any 
next step, cam timing, will report back with results 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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Stuart Racing
Zone Head
N.H.R.A . Dragracing.
Posts: 999
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posted April 11, 2009 10:57 AM
Scott, do you need your own cam degreeing kit????I have a Dale Walker cam degree kit....Comes with an instrution tape, mag. stand and dial ind. drgree wheel,3 different positive stops,and some other trinkets I`ve gathered up over the years, all in a platic case...
LMK....
stuartracing@att.net
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Life in the Fast Lane..........
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KZScott
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posted April 11, 2009 01:06 PM
I dont really want a kit. Im going to get one of the jointed arms like Karl uses. i hate the style that comes in the kits. i have a DI, but need to get a degree wheel. i like the big ones. the small one in the Dale W kit doesnt appeal to me. i made a positive stop out of a sparkplug and a bolt.
thx though
IN cam is at 104.5 break for supper. more later
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 11, 2009 01:29 PM
I believe that the second most important part of a cam degreeing kit is a good degree wheel. I like the ones that have a zero reading at TDC and BDC because it takes less math for me to do cam timing that way (e.g., 55 BBDC - 30 ATDC). I can't handle the ones that read 0-180-0. Also, I like as large a wheel as I can afford, so I get more precise readings. My current favorite is a Mr. Gasket 6120. It's 11" in diameter and has the markings I like. It's also affordable at only about $30 from Summit Racing. The Moroso 62191 is nice, but my engine stand is a little too low off the bench to clear its 18" diameter.
The most important part is the dial indicator setup with a good single-knob arm and plenty of indicator probes/extensions to suit your application.
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Stuart Racing
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posted April 11, 2009 04:05 PM
No problem, just checking....
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Life in the Fast Lane..........
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KZScott
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posted April 11, 2009 07:34 PM
well we got lucky, cam timing and PTV worked out ok with the stock non adjustable cam sprockets. Tim, the PTV tool is awesome!!!! so much better than using light checking springs.
IN is at 104.5 degrees and has a min clearance of .070
EX is at 103 degrees and has a min clearance of .100
tons of room, i guess we need bigger cams maybe next yr
cut the end of the cam cap to allow easier access/view. im thinking pretty hard about getting the ends of my cams turned down like Karls to get a straighter shot at the bucket for better accuracy.
put my cam cap on it as dad wants his painted, ill paint his and put it on my motor. forgot about a snapped off thermostat bolt, so that may be a challenge tomorrow, but once that is done, a couple sensors put on, stator and clutch covers, then its ready to go back in the bike. hopefully we will try to get it started tomorrow if everything goes well
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted April 11, 2009 07:44 PM
oh, i forgot to mention. since i didnt want to give the rod bolts another stretch, we put the block down over the pistons the old fationed way instead of putting the pistons in the bore then putting the cases together the easy way. well with NO chamfer, its a little challenging, but not impossible 
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 11, 2009 08:28 PM
 Edited By: tcchin on 12 Apr 2009 04:29
I'm glad you like the PTV tool. I like the one-piece, 1/4" aluminum base that you improvised! Unfortunately, it kinda defeats the purpose of the double-penetration tappet depressor.
I noticed in your photos that your dial indicator is at a pretty extreme angle to your valve axis. Did you decide not to build the special offset probes that allow you to take measurements with the dial indicator between the cams where you can get the dial indicator parallel with the valves? The problem with the axes being different is that the probe moves more than the tappet travels, giving you the impression that you have more PTV than you actually do. (You'd have to multiply the number you get by the cosine of the difference in angles to get the true number.)
It's hard to tell from the photos, but if the angle is 40* like it appears to be, then your intake PTV clearance is only .053" and your exhaust is only .076". Still plenty of room, but not the monstrous clearance you thought you had.
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KZScott
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posted April 11, 2009 09:09 PM
i think im going to revise my design to take full advantage of the double penetration finger(may need a couple GBs to do testing). this is my first attempt and what worked, but it had issues. it was still light yrs ahead of the way i did it last yr. i didnt have anything suitable on hand to try and make the correct DI probes  i wasnt even sure if i could make a set fit in the limited space i had(even tho thats what they are for). i really want to have the cams turned down to .75.
thank you for the clarification on the clearances. my guess is 30-40 degrees off from perpendicular. i forgot about having to use the pythagorean theorem
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 11, 2009 09:23 PM
The set of probes of which I sent you photos will fit a stock ZX-12 head without requiring modification to the cam towers or cams. Along with the photos, I also sent you the raw materials list, including the McMaster part numbers. I can bend up a set in about 10 minutes if you want me to send them to you. I'll even include the 1" extensions and some "probe blanks" so you can make your own custom bent/profiled/ground probes (I do that all the time, for some reason - I guess I just like making tools). Lemme know.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 11, 2009 09:32 PM
BTW, until you have to adjust the PTV with cam timing, you won't fully appreciate the PTV tool. Being able to plot PTV every two degrees of crank rotation, then change lobe centers and do it again, all in under five minutes is so satisfying. No taking the head off, replacing valve springs, scraping clay out of the valve pockets, etc. And the amount of information you can get beyond the clay method certainly fosters the warm-fuzzies. Maybe it's just me and my need to see trends in my data...
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KZScott
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posted April 11, 2009 10:19 PM
I could probly find the correct stuff if i checked a few places, but since Im up in Canada i cant order from McMaster without having it shipped to someone in the states for them to ship to me. sort of a pain in the ass.
I would really appreciate getting a pre bent set of probes, how much do you want for them?
thx!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted April 12, 2009 04:26 AM
Scott, maybe i misunderstood what you mean by "cam cap" ..... but you cant switch them between heads. They are machined as part of that head.
Also, you can drill a small hole in the cam retainer in just the right location to gain access to your bucket of choice.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
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posted April 12, 2009 05:46 AM
opps, typo up above. good catch! i switched the valve covers not the cam caps Jim
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 12, 2009 07:33 AM
Edited By: entropy on 12 Apr 2009 15:34
quote:
BTW, until you have to adjust the PTV with cam timing, you won't fully appreciate the PTV tool. Being able to plot PTV every two degrees of crank rotation, then change lobe centers and do it again, all in under five minutes is so satisfying. No taking the head off, replacing valve springs, scraping clay out of the valve pockets, etc. And the amount of information you can get beyond the clay method certainly fosters the warm-fuzzies. Maybe it's just me and my need to see trends in my data...
dats a fack, jack!!!!!!
I know my motor likes low CL #'s, but...
low CL #'s = small min PTV
It's an iterative process, check min PTV, change cam CL, check min PTV, etc
If you are running med CR and loose-ish squish, no problem, yr motor is prob OK
Tim's tool is GREAT!!!!
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KZScott
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posted April 12, 2009 10:13 AM
yup, going to have to start calling him Tim the tool man 
any more home made devices i should know about?
motor is ready to go back in the bike minus the oil pan slosh plate i havent made yet(going to copy the oil pan baffle for a gsxr 1000 on the Schnitz poster on my wall). family dinner is going to hold up progress today. thinking about pulling an all nighter
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 12, 2009 10:27 AM
KZ
i think if you fiddle around with Tim's tool you can have a better set up and get at the top of the bucket better. The best way is to use Tim's DI probes, but i wasn't clever enough to set em up properly. I get at the bucket from the fwd side of the int cam, and the rear of the exh cam.
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted April 12, 2009 10:50 AM
Scott - Just email me your address, and maybe a picture of a beer. Don't feel obligated to "fiddle around" with my tool...
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Shane661
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posted April 12, 2009 10:55 AM
quote:
Scott - Just email me your address, and maybe a picture of a beer. Don't feel obligated to "fiddle around" with my tool...
Scott, if you do "fiddle around" with this guy's tool...send me a picture of that. 
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KZScott
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posted April 12, 2009 11:02 AM
I didnt know you were into that sort of thing Shane....
lol
Tim, you like Budweiser? I owe you. I think ill stick to fiddling around with aluminum tho, im not into that kind of "favour" haha
thx Karl, ill try to do a better job next time. keeping up with you guys is hard work.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 12, 2009 04:18 PM
quote:
I get at the bucket from the fwd side of the int cam, and the rear of the exh cam.
Actually, that's what I meant when I wrote that I "take measurements with the dial indicator between the cams where you can get the dial indicator parallel with the valves". The probe points down to the outside of the outermost cam lobe and slightly fwd of the intake cam or slightly aft of the exhaust cam, which is the only place it can point with the stock cam tower in place. The first bend extends longitudinally over the face of the tappet, the second bend steps laterally over the cam lobe, and the final bend angles the point down toward the centerline of the tappet. It's a very tight and non-intuitive fit, but it works really well. I wouldn't try it without a jointed-arm (single-knob) holder, as you have to place the DI where it needs to be with one hand, letting the jointed arm do its thing, then tighten the holder down with the other hand. The more traditional holders with the multiple swivel clamps would be a nightmare and the flexible arm holders are not rigid enough.
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted April 12, 2009 09:09 PM
Just want to emphasize.... NEVER use a degree wheel with two zeros. Everytime I get a call or note from someone going crazy because they can't get their timing right, the first thing I ask is if they have a 0-180-0 wheel. They always do. You're just asking for trouble with one of those.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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NOX
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PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
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posted April 13, 2009 06:18 AM
Scott, I put my pistons in that way too.......
Pain in the butt....
Hint, use your 13 year old daughter, her hands can get into places mine cant.......
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KZScott
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posted April 13, 2009 06:49 AM
I like the 11 in Summit wheel in my buddys kit. i would probly have issues with two zeros
Nox, your stock block has a chamfer, that cheating lol. I had this 1287 block done without a chamfer as we plan on stroking the motor someday, and that extra material at the bottom will give us more skirt support.
no kids yet(as far as i know....) and my neices are too young to assist. you should have seen the 3yr old eating chocolate yesterday
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted April 13, 2009 02:53 PM
well we put it thru its first heat cycle no leaks or drips. now gotta do some extra wiring, hook up the logger ect.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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