tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 29, 2008 04:23 PM
Not just the same temp, but room temp, as the coefficients of thermal expansion are different between aluminum and steel and could lead to some erroneous readings. The clearance specs are designed to be applied at STP or room temp, which is pretty close.
  
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KZScott
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posted January 29, 2008 04:29 PM
very very good info guys. this thread is great info
finally got the shop heated, so i should be ok temp wise (parts shouldnt heat up much compared to tools or vise versa)
so Karl(or anyone else), to check the rods for "out of roundness" they would usually be an oval shape with the big measurement running the same way as the rod right?(generally speaking) and i check this with the bearings out of the rod and the cap in place(torqued and 2 flats like assembling, or just torqued to prevent extra stretch?)
thx!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 29, 2008 04:57 PM
quote:
I see your logic, and I agree that it's very hard to get readings with the soft bearings,
but I have concerns about any flaws/dirt in the journal or shells which would throw off your
calculation.
If you have runout that is measurable with a mic, it's time to have your crankshaft serviced. When I have my rods and crankshaft serviced, including mag, true, balance, index and polish, it only costs about $100. That's cheaper than a set of rod bearings and way easier to do when the crank is out of the motor anyway. If you have concerns about dirt, then you aren't done cleaning. These parts can never be too clean.
quote:
"If your bearings measure differently when installed, you need to refine your measurement techniques or you need to clean your parts more thoroughly."
Are you mearsuing the installed clearance to verify everything? If so I'm just skipping a step,
If not how do you know you need to clean more or re-measure?
Have you seen notable variance in the shells of the same color?
I have measured installed clearance before enough times to verify that I don't need to do it any more. Again, if things aren't adding up, you really can't blame the parts.
quote:
Polishing bearing refers to using very fine steel wool and removing the soft waxy coating
from inside of a bearing. This should not damage the shell any more than the scars from measurings, but should provide more reliable readings.
Since this coating wears off from oil pressure or any tight spots during break-in , maybe you would have a more uniform clearance if you removed before you customize your clearance.
My measurements do not leave scars on the bearing surface and I do not intentionally remove any material from the bearings. About a decade ago, it was fashionable to remove bearing material with light abrasives, but recent data from factory race engineers indicates that this is no longer a recommended practice.
quote:
Has anyone verified the clearance after the engine has run for a while.
Maybe another Karl test. 
Karl has also reported these parts change with tempature. Without knowing the
exact size at operating termpature, I really belive this a lot like setting cold tire pressure
to a tenth of a psi (32.5) on all 4 tires. It makes you feel good, but IT IS GOING TO CHANGE AS SOON AS YOU USE IT.
Used parts can vary from being pristine to being trashed depending on the service interval. Highly-stressed racing motors tend to need bearing replacement every 500km, at which time they are at their dimensional service limit.
All measurement standards are defined in the context of a reference ambient condition. This is usually 20*C and 1 bar. If you set the right clearance/pressure/preload/whatever in these conditions, then they will be right at the intended operating temp. For example, Dunlop's New Tech rear tires must be set at 22.5 psig at 165*F in order to perform well during race conditions. During a race, the tire will achieve running temps in the 210-220*F range, and the pressure will increase to 25 psig. It makes me feel good that my Grade 1A pressure gauge has the accuracy and precision to set the tires to the recommended pressures once my tire warmers have reached their thermostatically-controlled temp, and I feel confident that I've sent my rider out with a setup that will evolve into the optimum setup once the tires come up to operating temp.
quote:
Guy I'm not trying to be a AZZ, I'm a programmer and I have a need to understand the whats and whys. Because I work on high transaction systems, it makes me focus on efficiency.
Bear with me, we may learn something.
You can't throw a stick around here without hitting a programmer...
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 30, 2008 12:19 AM
quote:
You can't throw a stick around here without hitting a programmer...
and curiously, some of em are pretty reasonable folks 
congregation of programmers?
Gotta be a Preetham Patel or Manish Patel, or Asish Patel lurking...
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted January 30, 2008 06:09 AM
I went over 900 passes on my bearings before they gave, and I think it was my fault.......
A fram filter got air locked, and I did not catch it in time is what we think happened.........
I will never use anything but K&N filters again for sure........., first fram I had put on the bike......
Got my head back on last night, waiting on a starter gear, and I can then put the crank in........
It was VERY hard to just put stock pistons back in it.......... I actually only pulled two of them, and left the two good rods in it.........
Mike, I am buried up at work, I will get those other rods out to you by the end of the week......., and your check!!!!!
____________
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21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
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2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 30, 2008 03:09 PM
I will never use a K&N oil filter again, since the last one I used had the anti-drainback valve stick closed. Not a good condition if you like to have your dashboard free of red warning lights.
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KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 30, 2008 04:22 PM
i use the oem oil filters, i dont think anyone has had trouble with them??
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 30, 2008 05:06 PM
Nope, but it's more difficult to get sponsorship from an OEM than it is from someone who distributes aftermarket parts.
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NOX
Needs a job
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Posts: 3745
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posted January 30, 2008 05:07 PM
quote:
I will never use a K&N oil filter again, since the last one I used had the anti-drainback valve stick closed. Not a good condition if you like to have your dashboard free of red warning lights.
Wow, I have never heard of that........
I did not think that the ones in our filters had one.......? ( I am sure I am probably wrong though????)
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 30, 2008 05:36 PM
i dont have any sponsers, but i could use lots! LOL. any tips for the average joe looking to go fast on wknds?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 30, 2008 05:46 PM
Check out http://calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/FilterStudy.html. Between the first chart and the first image, there's a paragraph about a similar anti-drainback valve issue, along with some other good information about oil filters in general.
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted February 01, 2008 04:20 PM
quote:
quote:
I will never use a K&N oil filter again, since the last one I used had the anti-drainback valve stick closed. Not a good condition if you like to have your dashboard free of red warning lights.
Wow, I have never heard of that........
I have. I had friends who learned the hard way...
I did not think that the ones in our filters had one.......? ( I am sure I am probably wrong though????)
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Dane
Expert Class
Posts: 235
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posted February 10, 2008 08:54 PM
Great thread, another inexperienced engine assy going on here also. Have a crank with #2 rod spun bearing. Am going to replace the crank bearings with the colors marked with this crank. Question I have is where to send the crank the fix the journal (Ape, Falicon, etc) and where can I send to have the rods installed on the crank correctly, cant read the colors on the rod bearing inserts.
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted February 10, 2008 09:29 PM
word is Marine Crank. someone will have a number. dont buy bearings, until you get it back, and measure it........
____________
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2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted February 10, 2008 10:27 PM
http://www.marinecrankshaftinc.com/
2155 S. Grand Avenue, Santa Ana, CA 92705 714.549.2388
(Didn't they used to be in Newport Beach or Irvine??)
I've also had good luck with Castillo's Crankshaft Service
14654 1/2 Firestone Blvd, La Mirada, CA 90638-5915 714-523-0321
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dane
Expert Class
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posted February 11, 2008 09:39 AM
thanks tcchin, will call them
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entropy
Moderator
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posted February 11, 2008 09:56 AM
If TChin recs someone, you can take it to the bank.
If he recs 2 folks its a veritable "embarasment of riches"
me, i have had fantastic customer service with David Eden at Marine Crankshaft on many occaisons.
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Dane
Expert Class
Posts: 235
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posted April 15, 2008 07:51 AM
Tcchin, just received the crank back from Marine Crankshafts, thanks. Entropy, you were right David is an good guy to deal with. As a matter of fact, I had one journal fixed and the crank balanced, but was not billed for the balancing. I called David to see if he forgot to balance the crank , he said he did the work but forgot to charge me. I said no problem I'll send you the $ and he said don't worry about it, he was doing some strokers at the same time and just forgot.....measured the crank journals last night and doing the cases today at work so here we go............ KZScott, keep that rebuilding thread going, lots of good info. Entropy (karl) or KZ did you'll leave the crank balancer in or take it out?????
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 15, 2008 11:51 AM
Dane,
I rank David at Marine right along with Millennium, Cometic, Brock, Competition CNC. Spencer Cycle and a few others as far as 1st class customer service.
Glad he lived up to yr expectations.
opinions vary, but i junked the balancer a long ago.
Just make double damn sure and spot weld shot the lil oiling hole(s).
Karl
BTW: out of curiosity what part of the country do you live in?
Can we induce you to come down to the Texas Mile in Oct??
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entropy
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posted April 15, 2008 12:03 PM
 Edited By: entropy on 15 Apr 2008 13:06
three cheers for Tim Chin
three cheers for Tim Chin
three cheers for Tim Chin
I just re-read much of this thread and i am amazed at the wealth of info Tim Chin has taken the time to contribute.
For sure, i would not have racked up a grand in McM-C bills if Tim wasn't so generous with his advice, but for double-damn sure i'd still be rebuilding broken motors instead of doing satisfying (if not always successful) "experiments".
(motor is on the bench for the 5th time since Jan 1 )
Thank YOU!, Tim Chin
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted April 15, 2008 02:15 PM
You have to be nuts........
You have a serious addiction........
You need some legos to take your time when you want to build and tear stuff apart.....lol
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
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KZScott
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posted April 15, 2008 03:00 PM
taking it out. $20 for the muzzy dummy shaft for an easy as pie swap. or weld the holes shut in the stock shaft(if you remove the big part that spins) like Karl said. it doesnt affect the primary balance of the crankshaft like a harmonic damper in a v8.
it works by removing rotating mass, and cutting down on oil windage( for probly a 2-3 hp gain im told)
since it affects oil windage, you might want to look into the extra 2 oil squirters to spray the other pistons to keep them cool. its just a theory, but it makes sense to me (oil from windage helps keep them cool, and if you remove some, you should add some)
Karl probly mastered lego by age 1
im still sick, but ill try to get out to the shop tonight to get more stuff measured... need to place an order, i only have a few short weeks till races!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Dane
Expert Class
Posts: 235
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posted April 15, 2008 09:00 PM
Edited By: Dane on 15 Apr 2008 22:08
Yea that balancer has to go, dummy shaft on its way. Spot weld the holes? The ones I believe on either side of the #4 crank journal? Karl, I live in St. Rose, LA about 10 miles from New Orleans. I was planning to make it in Oct. Is that where the spicy craps and tiger beer are? Scott, whats up with that syrup,finished havesting? and for Tim, thanks for your knowledge on this thread, its been helpful to say the least. Just when I 'm thinking to box it up and sending it all to Karl for assembly, I read a little more to push me along. 5th time since Jan 1, Karl you could build mine in between posts.
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted April 15, 2008 09:09 PM
ah, LA, home of Abita........, and Turbo Dog.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 15, 2008 10:07 PM
Dane,
try to make the mile in Oct, GREAT time, and not too bad a drive for you coming from NO.
However, you'll have to drive another 12,000mi to get to the black pepper crabs & Tiger beer (Singapore)
KZ,
you are getting close to bolting those bikes back together, no time to be sick!
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