tcchin
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posted January 22, 2008 12:02 PM
Like Karl said, those are calipers, not micrometers. Calipers don't have sufficient resolution to measure down to the RCH, although they are useful for other things that would be difficult to measure with a micrometer.
  
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KZScott
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posted January 22, 2008 12:12 PM
ok. do those terms get mixed up a lot?(like quick and fast?)
dumb question, what is RCH?
thx guys!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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NOX
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posted January 22, 2008 02:05 PM
Ditto what Karl said.
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tcchin
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posted January 22, 2008 05:31 PM
RCH is a very, very small unit of measure... It stands for Red Hair.
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KZScott
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posted January 22, 2008 08:48 PM
hahaha i got ya 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 23, 2008 12:47 AM
quote:
RCH is a very, very small unit of measure... It stands for Red Hair.
Irish calibration standard, often used to determine when the space between yr teeth is under spec.
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KZScott
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posted January 27, 2008 09:59 AM
 Edited By: KZScott on 27 Jan 2008 10:03
OK, Im ready to start ordering some tools. This is what I think im going with as of now from Harbor Freight
ITEM 94873-2VGA
1.4-6'' ELECTRONIC BORE GAUGE
ITEM 95918-0VGA
MICROMETER STAND
Im not sure of what to get for a micrometer. I was looking at this at McMaster-Carr
Economy Electronic Outside Micrometers
Take outside measurements without paying name brand prices. These micrometers have an LCD, inch-to-metric conversion, the ability to set zero at any position, and a spindle lock to secure spindle at desired reading. Measure in 0.00005" (0.001 mm) increments.
Micrometers have a friction thimble and a rotating spindle. Frames have a heat shield to minimize heat expansion. Thimble and sleeve are made of molded plastic; spindle and anvil faces are carbide. Spindle and anvil are 0.250" (6.35 mm) dia. Include plastic case and battery.
Standard Micrometer Has an enamel-coated steel frame.
Harsh Environment Micrometers Have a chrome-plated steel frame and an IP54-rated housing to protect from water, coolant, dirt, and dust. 1-2" micrometer has a measuring rod.
Standard
0-1" (0-25mm) 0.75" ±0.00016" 2091A11 $75.16
Harsh Environment
0-1" (0-25mm) 0.75" ±0.00016" 2091A5 95.08
1-2" (25-50mm) 1.25" ±0.00016" 2091A6 117.12
What are the pros and cons of standard vs harsh environment?
thx!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
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posted January 27, 2008 11:04 AM
Those look like a reasonable place to start. Don't forget that you'll need both a 0-1" for measuring the bearing shells and a 1-2" for measuring the crank and cases. If you want to measure your cylinders and pistons too, you can get an economy 3-4" micrometer from McMaster (#2114A44, $26). You won't be doing a lot of repetitive measurements with this mic, so there's no need for the electronic display.
Also, I'd consider the merits of McMaster's economy dial bore gauge (#2110A12). It's a Fowler Xtender, so it's of known quality. The dial gauges can be easier to calibrate than the digital gauges because you can see how far off they are, turn the bezel that much and recheck, whereas some electronic ones require that you hold the unit still at the min reading point and press a button to zero the gauge, which can be difficult.
Of course, some of the newer electronic bore gauges can do a zero-to-min thing that makes calibrating really simple. These gauges also have a hold-at-min feature to make reading the bore size a matter of just muddling the gauge around in the bore, pulling it out and reading the number rather than the zen-like exercise you do to stabilize the min reading on a dial or non-automatic electronic gauge.
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KZScott
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posted January 27, 2008 01:52 PM
so i need 2 mics? why couldnt i get the 1-2'' and use different tips to measure the bearings? (if thats possible?) are there any 0-1.5'' mics that would do both in the same price and quality range?
the bore guage i have pictured above would be fine for cylinders and cases correct?(1.4-6'')
the $26 mic for pistons looks like something i would want too
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted January 27, 2008 05:20 PM
I don't know of any anvil tips that are in the 1" thickness range, which is what you'd need to use a 1-2" mic on bearing shells. I also have never heard of a 0-1.5" mic.
Yes, the 1.4-6" bore gauge will be fine for cases and cylinders, provided you measure your cases with the bearings out.
I suppose you could use the analog economy mics in 0-1" and 1-2" instead of the digital mics, but they're just a lot more difficult to read, zero, etc., especially while using anvil tips.
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KZScott
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posted January 27, 2008 06:21 PM
i guess ill have to get both the 0-1 and the 1-2 then. i want the digital version. i guess thats the price for having the tools to do it right.
so 3 mics, a mic stand, a bore guage, and tips, and i can measure cases, bearings, cranks, cylinders and pistons...
so the "harsh environment" is just a tougher version of the "standard"?
about tips. are they pretty universal, or do i need specific ones for the brand/type of mic i go with?
thx!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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ninja12
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posted January 28, 2008 08:57 AM
Edited By: ninja12 on 28 Jan 2008 09:07
Why are you measuring shells.
Can't you mic the cases/rods with the shells installed then subtract the crank?
Wouldn't that give you real numbers rather than calculated (should be) numbers.
If you really wanted to know can't you measure cases/ rods without shell then with shells
to get a 'real installed' number for the shells?
Other than FYI , what purpose does it serve to measure shells?
Are you guys playing with the variable within a color code?
If so, how many extra bearing in each code would you need to get a fit.
What am I missing here? Please explain is simple terms.
Side questions, anybody polish their bearings before install?
If so did you take a before and after measurement?
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NOX
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posted January 28, 2008 09:43 AM
Do you think Kaw polishes them? I polished my crank, and am putting in new bearings tomorrow night. putting new rods on two pistions tonight. Crank bearings dont show up till tomorrow........, not touching the head, no leaks at all.......
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ninja12
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posted January 28, 2008 11:15 AM
Do you think Kaw polishes them?
No! Do you think ports and polish heads? 
It's a builders trick that I wanted more information on?
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ninja12
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posted January 28, 2008 02:40 PM
"Can't you mic the cases/rods with the shells installed then subtract the crank?"
What's wrong with this thinking?
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NOX
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posted January 28, 2008 09:51 PM
Measure the crank, measure the rods........., then you will know what bearing to use.........
same with the cases..........
polishing the bearings huh, never heard of that one..........
I am not changing rings in the pistons, no need, so I am going to start with Royal Purple right back in it, should help the bearings last longer than with starting with mineral oil......
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2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
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AMSOIL
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tcchin
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posted January 28, 2008 10:15 PM
The bearing material is sufficiently soft that it's difficult to get a reading that doesn't include some amount of error related to surface scratching. That, and you can't isolate an out of spec shell by measuring it with another shell, which may be out of spec too. The ratchet or friction thimble on a micrometer is much less destructive than rocking a spring-loaded carbide bore gauge anvil across a soft bearing surface.
I measure all shells and classify them according to their actual dimensions, then pair them up to give me the clearance I need. I've found that you only need to get a few extras in order to get shell pairs that yield nice, uniform clearances. When forced to choose, I favor uniformity precision over target clearance accuracy when I assemble motors. For example, I'd much rather have all clearances at .0011 despite a target of .0010 instead of something like .0010, .0012, .0010, .0008, .0009. Uniformity soothes me. YMMV.
If your bearings measure differently when installed, you need to refine your measurement techniques or you need to clean your parts more thoroughly. It's important to note that moly paste between a bearing shell and a rod will throw off your apparent installed bearing ID. I clean both sides of the bearings with a cotton cloth and acetone before assembly, but I do not polish the bearing surface itself. I polish or otherwise surface treat my crank journals. I clean the cases and the rods as well and assemble the bearings dry (I use assembly lube between the crank and the bearings). Kawasaki is the only Japanese manufacturer that recommends the use of a lubricant between the rod and the bearing shell.
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ninja12
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posted January 28, 2008 11:43 PM
"Measure the crank, measure the rods........., then you will know what bearing to use........."
I respectfully disagree! Explain why you think a calculated clearance is going to be more reliable than a measured one.
How can this be as accurate as measuring the exact "INSTALLED CLEARANCE"?
I think we all agree that the manual recommended shells will get within tolerance.
Why not measure them and know for sure. Maybe use the manual to determine if there are other bearing that will let you customize your clearance.
A measured clearance is going to be more reliable than a calculated one.
I'm really amazed at how little credit Kawi gets for knowing their product.
Until Jim and Karl started talking, none of the Kawi guys would even share how to change plugs. I asked about a black coating on bearing 2 years ago and not one knowledgable response, now we (bikeland) have a thread about it and how long some have used it.
Karl and Jim
Since you have built more engines than most here, and I'm betting you keep good notes.
Will you check your notes to see how the crank and rods are marked or would have been marked based on your measured numbers and how your final bearing selection compare to the manual recommedation
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NOX
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posted January 28, 2008 11:58 PM
Thats what I meant.......,
Sorry for being vague.......
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2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
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Sponsored by:
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KZScott
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posted January 29, 2008 05:19 AM
just curious as to why they say to grease the outside of the shells? how much does it throw off a measurement?
keep the discussion going guys!
is polishing a crank, and polishing say a swingarm 2 totally different ball games?(i know how to do a swingarm or other aluminum part)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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NOX
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posted January 29, 2008 05:43 AM
YES, have it professionally done.........
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21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
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KZScott
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posted January 29, 2008 06:07 AM
ok, i guess it wont get done this year lol. ive spent way too much on this thing now and im not done. ill add polishing to the list when its stroked next year....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
ninja12
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posted January 29, 2008 08:55 AM
Thanks tcchin,
I see your logic, and I agree that it's very hard to get readings with the soft bearings,
but I have concerns about any flaws/dirt in the journal or shells which would throw off your
calculation.
"If your bearings measure differently when installed, you need to refine your measurement techniques or you need to clean your parts more thoroughly."
Are you mearsuing the installed clearance to verify everything? If so I'm just skipping a step,
If not how do you know you need to clean more or re-measure?
Have you seen notable variance in the shells of the same color?
Polishing bearing refers to using very fine steel wool and removing the soft waxy coating
from inside of a bearing. This should not damage the shell any more than the scars from measurings, but should provide more reliable readings.
Since this coating wears off from oil pressure or any tight spots during break-in , maybe you would have a more uniform clearance if you removed before you customize your clearance.
Has anyone verified the clearance after the engine has run for a while.
Maybe another Karl test.
Karl has also reported these parts change with tempature. Without knowing the
exact size at operating termpature, I really belive this a lot like setting cold tire pressure
to a tenth of a psi (32.5) on all 4 tires. It makes you feel good, but IT IS GOING TO CHANGE AS SOON AS YOU USE IT.
Guy I'm not trying to be a AZZ, I'm a programmer and I have a need to understand the whats and whys. Because I work on high transaction systems, it makes me focus on efficiency.
Bear with me, we may learn something.
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entropy
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posted January 29, 2008 03:29 PM
I am still very much in the learning stage of this, but really hated seeing scratches in the shells from the bore guage. I am concerned about temp of measurement, but you have the same issue whether you directly use a bore gauge on the installed shells or the bearing journal without the bearing.
Tim Chin is waaaaaaaay more experienced than i will ever be, but i did check the two methods on a rod and found that the lil scratches in the shell were like 3? (i disremember) tenths deep and the math worked out when comparing the 2 methods.
The thickness of the bearing shell changes very little after running.
Watch out for the rods tho, they get egg shaped after a while and need to be sized back to round.
I am retiring a set of Carrillos after having them re-sized twice, they seem to be tired.
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nox
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posted January 29, 2008 03:47 PM
especially at this time of year, it is paramount that your measuring tools, and what you are measuring are the same temp............
It WILL affect readings..............
____________
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21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
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