KZScott
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posted January 19, 2008 05:50 AM
crank bearings
OK, lets talk crank bearings. my bike had all blues, so thats what Im replacing them with as i didnt change the crank/cases. but dads bike has a new(still covered in oil in plastic in the kawi box) crank going in it. it had browns on the mains and blues on the rods with the old crank. is that what we go with for the new one? or does the new crank change that?
thx!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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starchild
Expert Class
Posts: 366
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posted January 19, 2008 09:59 AM
hey kz i have built and rebuilt my 12 several times and every time i check ,measure and used only the bearings that made the tolerances. i have found that no two cranks are the same and you only want to open the motor when you want not when you have to
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jay
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted January 19, 2008 05:23 PM
If you don't measure then follow the manual.
It the crank , cases, and rods have markings that you match up to
determine the proper bearings.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 19, 2008 10:17 PM
Right, the service manual has a size matrix that matches crank, case and bearing size. However, I've never found the factory markings to be very reliable, so I always measure everything.
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capt10ed
Expert Class
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posted January 20, 2008 11:01 AM
So that crank has not been in those cases before which color bearings should he start with?
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2014 Loring AFB 14 runs over 200mph
with a best of 208.1 in 1.5 miles
and 204.5 in the mile.
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starchild
Expert Class
Posts: 366
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posted January 20, 2008 11:50 AM
take measurements first on all journals then refer to the manual there is no other way to be 100% sure and then plastigauge
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jay
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KZScott
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posted January 20, 2008 12:21 PM
i just had a look at the cranks. the old one has the "O" marks, and the new one doesnt
oh, and the bad crank measued roughly 36.45mm on the bad journal (just quickly threw the mic on it) a good one was around 37mm. i was in a hurry and didnt get anything accurate. I will try to get some accurate measurements on the good crank.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 20, 2008 01:23 PM
ok I was wrong in my first statement
dads bike had browns on the mains, and browns on 3 of the rods. it had blues on the bad rod journal
im not sure what the PO tried, but he included a bag of bearings. (just loose in a bag  ) all the bearings but the bad ones are still in their respective places either in the cases or in the rods. the bad rod bearings were in the bag. theres a few in there, some look new(but banged up from rattling around in the bag) and it looks like he tried some on the bad rod journal as some of the bearings are used(and bad) im not even sure which of the bad bearings were in the bike originally(nothing was labled ) im pretty sure he tried a few bearings untill he realised that the journal was worn beyond the servise limit (hes a dirtbike guy) as the rod nuts on #3 are kinda chewed up
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 20, 2008 01:36 PM
the zip tie is on the bad one
BOTH bikes have the same marks on the rods
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 20, 2008 02:42 PM
 Edited By: tcchin on 20 Jan 2008 14:45
quote:
take measurements first on all journals then refer to the manual there is no other way to be 100% sure and then plastigauge
Measure the cases and the crank, then refer to the service manual to see what the service limits are on the oil clearances. You may be able to ballpark some bearing colors by matching the measured sizes to the letters/numbers in the size matrix. If you have the time, I'd order one of each color bearing (like a #1 main bearing and a rod bearing), measure them, then place your order based on how the sample bearings measure out and what oil clearances you determine are appropriate. For race motors, I like to use numbers on the loose side of the service limits, whereas on street motors, I prefer to shoot for the middle of the service limits. And stay away from that plastigauge if you can. Mics and dial indicators are much more accurate.
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 20, 2008 04:05 PM
i have my order of all blues for my bike still in the packages i can measure. (i took out blues, so i decided to replace with blues, and didnt think i had to measure anything this way as the cases and crank are the same) and i have a couple browns that look to be unused in the bag of parts for dads bike. that should cover the range as i believe black is in the middle.
i dont have a dial indicator(yet...) just a mic
what is the best way to measure the cases? (i didnt notice if they were marked or not, ill have to check)
thx!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted January 20, 2008 04:56 PM
Nothing beats verifying every part, but too what extend is up to you.
Some builders mix bearing colors to get an exact clearance.
Resize any rods that are to be reused.
Some guys measure the rods , and block for length.
I trust the manual.
If blue came out blue can go back in.
Probably won't hit the perfect number but should be within the allowable limits.
Give it a few heat cycles and some break in miles just like when new.
my .002
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KZScott
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posted January 20, 2008 05:39 PM
question on mixing bearings:
i realise each rod/journal/case could be a bit different, so to get them all the same clearance(not just in a acceptable range), you must mix colours. this means one rod might get blues and another gets blacks, but does it go even further to say one rod can have a blue insert and a black insert? (if the desired clearance fell inbetween using blues and blacks)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 20, 2008 09:50 PM
quote:
Nothing beats verifying every part, but too what extend is up to you.
Some builders mix bearing colors to get an exact clearance.
Resize any rods that are to be reused.
Some guys measure the rods , and block for length.
I trust the manual.
If blue came out blue can go back in.
Probably won't hit the perfect number but should be within the allowable limits.
Give it a few heat cycles and some break in miles just like when new.
my .002
There is enough manufacturing tolerance in the parts that sometimes color is irrelevant. I measure all the bearings and make pairs of the ones that are closely matched and make sense in terms of my target clearances, regardless of how they're painted. I don't consider this to be mixing bearing colors, so much as performing due diligence. If the bearings were mismarked by the factory with the wrong paint, then bearing color mixing becomes a philosophical argument.
I trust the manual too, but I don't trust that the parts I buy are the same as the parts whose specifications are listed in the manual, nor do I trust that the markings on the parts accurately describe the geometry of the parts themselves. I have found that the more time I spend measuring things, the less time I spend regretting that I didn't.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 20, 2008 10:10 PM
quote:
what is the best way to measure the cases?
Use a bore gauge to measure ID's. Fowler makes an economical analog one and a decent digital one with a "minimum hold" feature built into the indicator that's designed specifically for bore gauge applications. If you're feeling saucy, you can spring for the Mitutoyo, but they're easily two to four times as expensive as the Fowler. If you need to have the best of the best, some of the older European tool makers are difficult to match in terms of quality.
See http://longislandindicator.com/p8.html for some information on using and selecting bore gauges.
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ninja12
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posted January 21, 2008 08:25 AM
quote:
question on mixing bearings:
i realise each rod/journal/case could be a bit different, so to get them all the same clearance(not just in a acceptable range), you must mix colours. this means one rod might get blues and another gets blacks, but does it go even further to say one rod can have a blue insert and a black insert? (if the desired clearance fell inbetween using blues and blacks)
Same rod could have a blue and a black.
Question for tcchin, Have you found where the manual recommended parts didn't fall within range? Do you think Kawi markings are off more than others?
I agree blueprinting a motor will always be the "best" way with the right tool and knowledge.
It's not easy to get accurate and repeatable measurements, for those who have never done it before, which could lead to more inaccurate choices.
I question why Kawi would put the guide in the book if it's unless.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 21, 2008 11:04 AM
Regardless of the manufacturer, I have found that the markings on the cases, rods and crank are not very accurate. In addition, for the manufacturers that list thicknesses for bearing shells, I have found that the OEM bearings that I buy from a dealer never match the dimensions in the service manual. In many cases, but not always, just going by the service manual and using the recommended colors will get you in within the service limit, but usually just barely and not very uniformly. If you're hoping to get a uniform, mid-range clearance across all your bearings, you can guarantee that using the service manual to size the bearings for you and installing them without measuring them will completely nullify your chances.
Sure, the motor will run if you build it according to the service manual, but I couldn't live with the unknowns. Does this make the guide in the manual useless? For me, maybe, but not for the repair shop who charges a flat rate and doesn't want to take the time to measure everything down to the RCH. Call me boring, but I take my CH's seriously, and I usually like them all to be the same color.
BTW, the term "mixing bearings" means using two different bearing thicknesses on the same journal. This is not recommended. Again, I don't consider my technique to be "mixing", as I pair up bearings by thickness according to my clearance needs, regardless of which color paint they were marked with.
Buying good tools and learning how to use them right is always cheaper and faster than fixing things when they go wrong. If you have any questions about selecting or using these measurement tools, there are plenty of people on this forum who can help, including myself.
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KZScott
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posted January 21, 2008 11:45 AM
wow, this thread is great! im really glad i started it. im definatly going to double check everything on both bikes now that i have a much better understanding of it all. ill have to buy a bore guage and learn how to use it properly.
it took a little while to get used to my digital caliper lol. first time i mic'd a muzzy clutch steel last year i got something like 1.96 (wtf? these are supposed to be 2.00) after i learned to not try and cut the part im measuring in half with the caliper, i started getting much more accurate and repeatable results  (i practised on how much pressure to apply by measuring feeler guages till i could get on the numbers. tip for guys like me just starting this stuff)
i definatly want to get mid range clearance, not just in the range (but all over the place in the range)
keep this stuff coming! 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 21, 2008 01:28 PM
KZ:
if you are gonna embark on measuring bearing shells you'll need a real good set of (digital preferably) 0-1" micrometers. Getting repeatable measurements to 1/10 of a thousanth requires good equip. AND temp makes a difference, AND it takes practice to get consistent.
Then to calibrate a bore gauge and measure case & rod & crank journals, a 1-2" micrometer...
then...
then...
I about had a heart attack at 3am Sun morning when i finally got around to measuring my brand new undercut pistons, they were all 4-5 tenths too small for my cyl block!!!!
Then i measured my cylinders and they too, had "shrunk" by 4-5 tenths.
It seems that my 29F garage & parts had something to do with it... 
Beware! If Tim gives you the link to McMaster-Carr and you click on it, you are beginning a voyage into OCD.
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KZScott
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posted January 21, 2008 04:01 PM
I have a mastercraft digital caliper that reads to in 0.000 (then has "S") and mm 0.00
you should try measuring your pistons up here right now Karl, they would be as small as mine lol (-22F or so)
a voyage into OCD may not be a bad thing. I want to know how to do this right i am realising more and more everyday that theres a HUGE difference between just putting a motor together, and "building" a motor. i want mine to be "built". and I want to be able to do it
bring on the links
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
NOX
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posted January 21, 2008 06:59 PM
Measure EVERYTHING, then use the proper bearings to get the proper clearence..........
I am ordering a set of browns for my new crank this week.........
Cant wait to get back in the saddle.......
Trailer is at the graphics shop, photos to come soon.........
____________
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ninja12
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posted January 21, 2008 08:19 PM
What you guys are calling building is what I call blueprinting an engine.
Whatever we call it , when you pay attention to every detail, and adjust to an exact tolerance.
That is now and always has been the best way to build an engine, not the only way!
Without knowing who is reading this thread and their financial status I think
it's important to say you can follow the manual to get your sled back into action.
It's fear of getting in over your head and high tech/$ tools that forced me to sit out
a full year while saving to have someone else rebuild my engine.
It's also the reason a bud sold me his cbr900 engine with a 945 kit , in a box with a replacement crank very cheap. I re-built it using the manual and plasti-gage. That engine has close to 10,000 miles and is still running.
Great Thread, keep it rolling.
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted January 21, 2008 10:55 PM
Being a cheap bastard at heart, I have found that the problem with cheap tools does not lie in their initial performance, but in their durability. Well, durability and convenience, as some of the electronic tools have some features that can save a lot of time and effort. That being said, someone who is not in the business of rebuilding motors professionally and/or continually (read: Karl) can probably get by with an economical set of metrology tools that will serve them well for at least a couple of rebuilds. They will have paid for themselves by then and may be considered fully depreciated. If the sickness for building motors continues, more sophisticated tools can be coveted and acquired.
If you are on an absolute shoestring budget, you can get a Harbor Freight Tools (http://www.harborfreight.com) electronic bore gauge #94873 for under $100. Cheap, yes, and not as accurate or as durable as a Mitutoyo or even a Fowler, but serviceable. For another $20, you can get an analog Fowler Xtender from McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/). McMaster also carries the Xtender-E for another $100 or so. The Fowlers are pretty decent rigs for the money. For another $200 or so, you can have an analog Mitutoyo. Adding a Mitutoyo Digimatic indicator such as a 543-266b will add another $400 to the bill...but it's really cool.
If you're going to spend money, it should be spent on a good electronic digital micrometer. Knowing how to read an analog micrometer scale is a good skill to have, but you can avoid the hassle and potential for error by getting a mic with an electronic digital display. They are usually swappable between inches and mm and they're WYSIWYG in terms of readings. There are mechanical digital mics, but they are not swappable between inches and mm. In addition to being able to read the number directly from a digital mic, you can also do differential measurements from a temporary zero, like when you use your ball anvil tips to measure curved surfaces like bearing shells. You can also read the display from just about any angle, unlike the analog mics where you have to have a good look at the thing to see what it says. Needless to say, zeroing an electronic mic is a no-brainer too.
McMaster has plenty of Mitutoyo and Starrett mics in the $200-300 range, but they also carry an economy line that's in the $100 range. Those and a set of ball anvil tips for $5, and you're ready to measure bearings and cranks.
A micrometer stand is well worth the $10 at Harbor Freight or even the $20 at McMaster. A stand makes tasks like zeroing a bore gauge or measuring a piston skirt doable. Without a stand, these tasks are almost impossible.
If you plan on adjusting the deck height and/or cam timing, you need to get some digital or dial indicators, but that's a topic for another time.
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KZScott
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posted January 22, 2008 07:35 AM
this is what i have right now:
so i cant use this to measure bearings? i need the ball anvil tips? (can they be put on what i have?)
is it nessasary to use a bore guage to measure the cases, or can it be done with a mic?
i really only need the tools to rebuild 2 motors right now, im a looong way from doing this professionally (but thats the goal in a couple years) and i cant do "expirements" all the time like Karl. these motors have to last a season (at least!). next winter we plan on going with stroker kits.....(another topic for another time)
I am planning on adjusting deck height and cam timing on my bike, and i was looking into the kit MM sells.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 22, 2008 08:09 AM
nope,
that set of calipers is reprodicible to .001.
to measure bearings you need .0001.
the whole range of main & rod bearing shell thickness is only .001
rod bearing inserts
brown 1.475-1.480mm (0.0581- 0.0583in)
black 1.480-1.485mm (0.0583- 0.0585in)
blue 1.485-1.490mm (0.0585- 0.0587in)
main bearing inserts
brown 1.490-1.494mm (0.0587- 0.0588in)
black 1.494-1.498mm (0.0588- 0.0590in)
blue 1.498-1.502mm (0.0590- 0.0591in)
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