entropy
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posted February 01, 2007 05:45 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 1 Feb 2007 07:49
bike on dyno: moment of panic
Got my heap back on the dyno (Factory pro) last sat.
Started a 3,000rpm, doing 4sec steady loads at 1000 rpm increments, everything going fine.
Going fine until 9 grand when it starting misfiring badly.
Shit-Fuck-Piss!!!
I thought how am i going blow this thing up on the dyno if it won't pull even 9000??? 
After a lil scouting around i found #1 coil wasn't completely seated on the plug. Wierd that it only manifested at hi revs.
Jammed that bad boy down and that fixed the missfire, it then pulled strongly at 9, 10, 11, 11.6.
a couple years ago JohnnyCheese tried tuning my bike using the Dynojet Load Control, but at about 8-9 grand the tire would just go up in smoke, apparently could NOT hold the hp even when strapped tight. The Factory pro drum seems to have no trouble holding traction on the drum even at 11.6. hmmmmm....
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MadMike
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posted February 01, 2007 05:56 AM
woooooo I hate that sound!!!
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted February 01, 2007 07:14 AM
Glad everything went well.
Yep, I hate that sound too, especially on the juice!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 01, 2007 10:12 AM
So are you pleased Karl?
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entropy
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posted February 01, 2007 11:10 AM
quote:
So are you pleased Karl?
Nope, not satisfied yet.
I suspect i still have a gremlin but my dyno guy says i am chasing shadows; that it is running strong
Going to try low lift, long duration cams on sat; degreeing 'em in tomorrow.
I REALLY like the Factory Pro dyno, but am still trying to get a sense of what the CO, CO2, HC, O2 levels mean and how they relate to A/F.
I am logging AF, oil pressure etc with my LM-1 in parallel with the dyno pulls until i can see what levels of CO = what numbers od AF
no other changes (yet), i want an apple to apples Muzzy vs custom cams.
Me, i am just happy it didn't blow up(yet)! 
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osti33
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posted February 01, 2007 07:39 PM
Glad you got that coil figured out. 
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entropy
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posted February 01, 2007 08:03 PM
quote:
Glad you got that coil figured out.
me too, scared the shit outa me.
Get yr cams back yet?
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osti33
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posted February 01, 2007 08:17 PM
quote:
quote:
Glad you got that coil figured out.
me too, scared the shit outa me.
Get yr cams back yet?
Nope. Talked to Dave today. Should get them next week.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted February 02, 2007 06:12 PM
curious, what is the HP reading difference between a factory pro and dj? is it about 20% or so?
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entropy
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posted February 02, 2007 09:26 PM
quote:
curious, what is the HP reading difference between a factory pro and dj? is it about 20% or so?
the difference goes up with the motor hp. Mine reads somewhere between 15-20% lower on the Factory Pro than on Dynojet. The cool thing about FactPro is that it is REAL consistent, hot weather, cold weather no difference; if the bike is set up the same it will read the same, even months later.
We all know that Dynojet hp readings are a crapshoot as far as absolute numbers. You have to do any comparisons with same dyno, same day, same ambient temp/pressure to get comparative numbers that make sense. The correction to SAE just doesn't work right. With FactPro it seems to.
I'm still learning and this is FUN!
Lets see if I can blow up my motor tomorrow
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01zx12r
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posted February 02, 2007 09:46 PM
Dyno Differences
Recently I've learned that there is about an 18% difference between dyno figures (chassis) and that its all dependent on correction factors. Since we have now PURCHASED a chassis dyno along with some of the best DAQ hardware available hopefully in a couple weeks I will have knowledge first hand to share...Chris
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marc salvisberg
Parking Attendant
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posted July 19, 2008 11:20 AM
Edited By: marc salvisberg on 19 Jul 2008 12:56
quote:
Got my heap back on the dyno (Factory Pro) last sat.
Started a 3,000rpm, doing 4sec steady loads at 1000 rpm increments, everything going fine.
Going fine until 9 grand when it starting misfiring badly.
I thought how am i going blow this thing up on the dyno if it won't pull even 9000???
After a lil scouting around i found #1 coil wasn't completely seated on the plug. Wierd that it only manifested at hi revs.
Jammed that bad boy down and that fixed the missfire, it then pulled strongly at 9, 10, 11, 11.6.
a couple years ago JohnnyCheese tried tuning my bike using the Dynojet Load Control, but at about 8-9 grand the tire would just go up in smoke, apparently could NOT hold the hp even when strapped tight. The Factory pro drum seems to have no trouble holding traction on the drum even at 11.6. hmmmmm....
And JohnhyCheese was arguing with us for days......... a few years ago...... about dynos and tuning....... and maybe even traction.......
I made a table of True HP vs "dynojet hp" - It's from doing bikes on the EC997 dynos (True HP) and then having them run on dynojet dynos (djhp) -
It's an "average", so, I'm sure that you could find a dj or dj clone that'll be + or - maybe as much as 10%. off what the "average" inflation is.
http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html
Here's the patent link on the high traction drive roller -
http://www.factorypro.com/patents_salvisberg.htm
It's the first one.
One of our users held over 250 True HP in Steady State without tire slipping (that's like about 340 - 350 djhp, I'd guess.
You wouldn't want to do that with nitrous, but, turbo or supercharger would usually be OK.
As far as my patent attorney and I know, most everybody else uses a knurled driver roller, like dynojet.
Cheers!
Marc
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted July 20, 2008 07:05 PM
Holy thread resurrection!!!!!
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woppi
Pro
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posted July 21, 2008 03:01 AM
#
@entropy
i hope -- your never blow up your engine at the dyno !!!!
woppi
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2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
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bigdtd
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Interceptors
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posted July 30, 2008 04:20 PM
give it hell
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted July 30, 2008 04:55 PM
Marc, I am curious, I think Factory Pro dynos run 4 or 5 gases. If you could share a little insight as to which gases are read and how each relates to tuning? Also what aspects in or after the ECU are you able to have an affect on in order to effect the tune of the bike and correlation of those gases?
Thanks,
Gary
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entropy
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posted July 31, 2008 01:46 AM
Edited By: entropy on 31 Jul 2008 02:49
quote:
Marc, I am curious, I think Factory Pro dynos run 4 or 5 gases. If you could share a little insight as to which gases are read and how each relates to tuning? Also what aspects in or after the ECU are you able to have an affect on in order to effect the tune of the bike and correlation of those gases?
Thanks,
Gary
Gary,
Marc doesn't come on here often and since he pays me big bux to promote Factory Pro, let me provide some info:
(Marc: keep those checks coming!!!!!)
FactoryPro - CO% "indicator of mixture strength".
If 5% CO made best power at some rpm and throttle position, you could also tune all other throttle positions and rpms and even idle to 5% and you'd have a nice, smooth running engine"
FactoryPro - HC "indicator of engine efficiency."
Lower unburned hydrocarbon ppm in exhaust indicates good overall state of engine health, (when finished tuning to Best Power ) you'd even see that large bore engines, at 200 to 300 ppm, are cleaner burning than small bore engines, usually 600 to 800 ppm). That's due to increase boundary area"
FactoryPro - CO2+HC "show ""over advanced"" ignition timing."
Generally, after you finished fuel tuning, you'd see high HC and low CO2 - and that would indicate that you should try backing off the ignition timing.
If it's too advanced - the power will improve as it's retarded and the HC will drop to <1000 ppm, due to better combustion efficiency."
FactoryPro - CO2 "a clue to ""retarded from best power"" ignition timing."
If you've optimized fuel for best power and the CO2 is less than 9, it indicates that you should try advancing the ignition timing. Power will increase as you advance the timing to optimal setting,
the CO2 will approach the 10% range if the fueling is correct and you reach tuning perfection
indicator of general, overall fuel and ignition timing optimization.
If you are making Best Power and the CO2 is 9.9 to 10.2, you HAVE:
optimal fuel on EACH cylinder
optimal ignition timing on EACH cylinder
and you are 99% sure that you are making all the power that that engine can make and no change of fuel or ignition will make it better -"
FactoryPro - O2 "indicator of how much oxygen is left.
If the engine is making Best Power with a particular fuel stagger and / or ignition timing, and the o2 value is above 1%, I'd look at improper fuel stagger and retarded ignition timing -
Retarded ignition timing increases the O2 level in the exhaust - so we don't rely on it "
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted July 31, 2008 05:41 AM
Thanks Karl, I always wanted to know, but did not find it on their web site or when I did a search. I am however not as patient or diligent as KZScott.
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entropy
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posted July 31, 2008 06:08 AM
that material is my "digested summary" so i can monitor the gas reading when i am having steps done.
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marc salvisberg
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posted July 31, 2008 08:30 AM
Edited By: marc salvisberg on 31 Jul 2008 09:32
The Factory Pro EC997 dyne systems have had fully integrated 4 gas EGA's, almost from it's inception, many years ago.
It's the ONLY tuning dyno made like that.
CO% = the most consistent indicator of "AFR" (as compared to common O2 sensor "AFR")
HC ppm = indicates completeness of burn
CO2% = indicates ignition timing setting and mixture strength
O2% = the last gas we look at (and the only gas the others look at) - used in conjunction with CO2% to help diagnosing ignition timing and cylinder fueling stagger.
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KZScott
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posted July 31, 2008 01:46 PM
Hey Marc(or Karl), how does a super flow dyno compare to a FP? i was told they are very similar.
DR Gary, you probly just have more of a life than me :P lol
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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marc salvisberg
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posted July 31, 2008 05:07 PM
Edited By: marc salvisberg on 31 Jul 2008 18:08
quote:
Hey Marc(or Karl), how does a super flow dyno compare to a FP? i was told they are very similar.
How fair of a question is that for me?
I tune engines and develop products for us and other people and we make dynos.
From "day one", our systems featured a low inertia drive roller for maximum load flexibility and speed resolution (you can see a single cylinder slightly misfiring in realtime) and they have a low 12" profile.
When a tuner has the ability to change the dyno and dyno software to make it quicker to use, easier to use, less confusing to use, accumulate less engine run time during tuning, make it more accurate and end up with better real world results, wouldn't he?
Th EC997 dynes are well guided in their test routines and are well suited for tuning to best power and engine smoothness (which is the goal, after all).
On the other hand, the SF's can do some engineering related things that engineers do when they are working on the same engine for an extended period of time.
The FP's are quick to setup and run different bikes sequentially - They were designed to quickly tune without having to have a dedicated "engineer" to run the tests but still read out in tenths in realtime as you do the tests.
Oh... With the FP EC997 dyno, you can sit of a nice comfy stool when you are doing a test and work the computer keyboard, normally, instead of sitting on the bike.
I suppose that you'll ask someone with a Superflow about what I said? :-)
Thanks -
Marc
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KZScott
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posted July 31, 2008 05:33 PM
Im just curious as to how they operate. a guy i race with melted a turbo 10r on a super flow, but i "think" it was the dyno guys fault. i believe they tried to tune it for 12.8 AFR on pump gas, no timing retard, stock CR, 6psi... if they had access to all the FP features (do they??) they should have been able to prevent meltdown, if they knew how to tune...
thats why i put a data logger on my bike, no good tuners around
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted August 01, 2008 05:54 AM
Edited By: TRNorBRN6001 on 1 Aug 2008 06:54
Just hear say, but if it was not in the motor to begin with and the operator was not experienced with turbos, those suckers can build heat up real fast. Especially on
back to back pulls or long steady state higher RPM/boost conditions without adequit cooling. 6psi is not much though, but...........................without a spacer plate, timing, or lower CR it can be. It was common when the first Ghetto kits hit the streets without spacer plates that after a few back to back high runs those valve pockets would not hold up.
But..............................................thats just my idiots two cents.
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marc salvisberg
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posted August 01, 2008 08:48 AM
Edited By: marc salvisberg on 1 Aug 2008 10:01
quote:
Im just curious as to how they operate. a guy i race with melted a turbo 10r on a super flow, but i "think" it was the dyno guys fault. i believe they tried to tune it for 12.8 AFR on pump gas, no timing retard, stock CR, 6psi... if they had access to all the FP features (do they??) they should have been able to prevent meltdown, if they knew how to tune...
thats why i put a data logger on my bike, no good tuners around
Cool! That WAS an objective question!
Both of the dynos can work similarly in some ways.
In other ways, they are different.
Superflow has no built in "tuning philosophy", besides "tune to an AFR".
The Factory Pro EC997's system promotes "Tuning to Best Power" - and I'm here to tell ya.... if the engines detonating - it'll make tons less power - so you'll see detonation before it melts something expensive with a turbo.
The FP EC997 can easily go up to a specific rpm and in only 5 seconds, get the HP and 4 gas readings and then, you let off the throttle. (not easy to do on the SF, over multiple points).
Nice thing about that? It gets the combustion chamber material "up" to real world temperatures, but, you aren't there so long so as to cause extreme temps, that would lead to preignition / detonation "meltdown".
We also integrate a 4 gas EGA into the dyno's data (nobody else does) - that'll get you better mixture and ignition info than a simple wideband O2 sensor (which, and they don[t tell you this, is affected by the ignition timing).
A lot of guys with SF's (just like the DJ guys) will do long, loaded sweep tests to get the AFR to kind of line up to the right rpms - and while that might not cause a problem if the engine is already properly tuned and running only 7-8 psi boost, a 20+ second "sweep test" might melt a lean, 15 psi engine -
So - it's plausible that the dyno guy bought a potentially good, expensive dyne system, but wasn't fully trained - A dyno is only as good as the training.
Thanks -
Marc
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Marc Salvisberg
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