entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 18, 2006 07:10 AM
injectors: it's being hell being old :-(
I wanna contact the folks who reconditioned my injectors a couple years ago, and can't find my own reference. I'd know it if I heard it, can ayone help me out??
BUT, perhaps someone can shed light on:
1. "is bigger better" for big NA motors????
2. If yes to #1, is there a compatible injector avail for the 12 which is higher capacity than the OEM.
I got some 40+ numbers on my PC3r on fri and finally wanna go to larger injectors (already have a Muzzy pump)
Thx for any help!!!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
  
|
osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
|
posted September 18, 2006 08:09 AM
It was RC that does the injectors Karl. The rest I can't help with.
I got your message. I'll give you a call this afternoon.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 18, 2006 08:11 AM
thx!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted September 18, 2006 08:27 AM
 Edited By: ninja12 on 18 Sep 2006 09:28
The Busa guys are having some low end tuning problems with the big injectors.
give up bottom control for more flow up top.
May not a concern for a track bike.
They use the s2000 injectors if you want to see if you can use them.
I think zx12 guys would be better with increased fuel pressure.
The regulator on the TB can be modified or replaced.
I think Lee sheirts crushes the regulator on the 1000 for more pressure.
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted September 18, 2006 02:05 PM
I was just recommended to Tim Marren 203-267-3835 in Ct. by Carlquist comp.eng.I will call tomorrow but figured I'ld give a fyi.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 18, 2006 03:08 PM
thanks guys!
A Doug Meyer post some time ago showed why increasing regulator pressure doesn't do too much for adding fuel, so I called RC Engineering and talked to Walter. Bottom line is I am gonna experiment with 370cc/min injectors (OEM are 310-ish). We'll see if this experiment works....
(to be continued)
AA: ask about the 370's if you will.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted September 18, 2006 06:08 PM
I'ld love to help you entropy,now what is it I'm to ask?Is the 370 a new injector or a modification to the stock injector?How many spray holes and what angle?Mind you today was the first time having one in my hands so my knowledge is limited.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted September 18, 2006 06:11 PM
http://www.injector.com/about.php
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 18, 2006 11:26 PM
the 370cc/min is a new injector. No idea about spray hole etc. It is a bit longer than OEM and there is not a lot of space so fitment is likely to be "fun" 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted September 19, 2006 01:13 AM
I run RC370s in my 750. Good for about 280hp maxed out, I run mine at about 240.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 19, 2006 01:30 AM
Lorcan,
thx for the input. You are one of the experts around here and i value yr opinion.
My hp curve has always looked flaky over 10000 (1427 NA), and i get big numbers in the PC3r fuel table (some 40's). Duty cycle #'s hi 80's - low 90's.
Some folks say this is fine, others say bigger injectors needed...
I'm going to try to install the RC370's to put my mind at ease (one way or the other), but am interested in yr thoughts.
Thanks
Karl
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted September 19, 2006 02:25 AM
When I punched in 370 on the web site,it showed that it was good for 225hp.Do you need the dimension?I saw on there a fuel rail that reduces hydrolic pulsation.I wondered if that was causing your flaky curve.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 19, 2006 02:39 AM
AA: thx for the info. I will get the dimension of the RC370 when I attempt to squeeze em in 
a fuel rail to reduce hydraulic pulsation??? I wonder what that is???
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted September 19, 2006 02:41 AM
225 will be at 80% duty cycle.
Sometimes there is a patch around 86-88% duty cycle where some injectors don't behave as they should. They can, for want of a better word, "stutter". This is partly the reason injector companies suggest 80% as the limit on duty cycle, the other reason is for cooling of the injector coil windings. This isn't really an issue on a dragbike, as modern high impedance injectors are quite happy at 100% duty cycle for a few seconds at least.
I haven't had any problems with my RCs, I've used 310s and 370s. The only problems I have heard of are sticking when used with Klotz fuel. Stay away from Klotz and you should be fine.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 19, 2006 03:15 AM
great info:
Q: has anyone actually put RC370's into a ZX12??? It looks like it's gonna be doable? but tight; Wayne at RC says the 370's are a bit less than 1/2" taller than OEM's. Also need to make a change in the connectors.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted September 19, 2006 10:50 AM
Very interesting. Would be nice if it would open up that last bit of extended rpm for ya.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 19, 2006 12:30 PM
I am checking with DaveO, but someone posted some time ago, that the extended rpm ECU cuts fuel delivery by 5% due to increased clock speed or some such thing. Thus apparently you'd need a bigger PC3 number to give the same fuel delivery. I'm getting confused but that's pretty normal.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
|
posted September 19, 2006 02:05 PM
I asked about hydraulic pulse and he said that was with bigger 500cc injectors that might cause a 0 pressure at the injector even tho the rail was a steady pressure making an unsteady spray.He didn't want to say much about the 370 and said he needed more variables to tell you what works.He said to call him if you want.
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
|
kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
|
posted September 19, 2006 03:23 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 19 Sep 2006 16:29
quote:
thanks guys!
A Doug Meyer post some time ago showed why increasing regulator pressure doesn't do too much for adding fuel, so I called RC Engineering and talked to Walter. Bottom line is I am gonna experiment with 370cc/min injectors (OEM are 310-ish). We'll see if this experiment works....
(to be continued)
AA: ask about the 370's if you will.
It will work fine Karl as long as the bike gets COMPLETELY re-mapped...
It will run/idle-like-ASS in the begining unless you take fuel out with the map before you start it...
We have bigger injectors in Ryan's Stock-Bore Bbusa...I have LOTS of neg-numbers in the map now even with the Fuel Pressure set at 40-ish PSI...
Bike "runs fine" after propper mapping
We are going to spray over a hundred into it and needed the injectors to be able to handle 350-400 total Hp...
Waiting for the custom-made 1397 pistons before we SPRAY it though...
This will be about the 5th??? time I have re-mapped his bike for new-mods...LOL...
We did end up making 200+ Hp with Stock Bore Bbusa though 
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted September 20, 2006 02:16 AM
KC,
thx for the input; do you know anyone who has put 370's on a ZX12????
200hp on a stock bore busa is pretty damn stout! kinda akin to a 1290 ZX12 which has been SERIOUSLY tuned, eh?
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted September 20, 2006 02:25 AM
If you are having pulsation problems with big injectors another thing you can do is to dead-head the fuel rail. Most OEM systems use a 2 port FPR so the fuel goes tank > pump > rail > fpr > tank. If you use a 3 port regulator and plumb it tank > pump > fpr > rail with the 3rd port on the fpr going back to the tank you will have a "deadheaded" fuel rail that has no return. This provides a constant head of fuel for the injectors with less pressure drop as the fuel is not rushing past them on it's way back to the tank. It also means that the only fuel circulating is the fuel not being used by the engine so you get less heat build up in the fuel. This is the system I used on my alky 750 in the 90s which used 8 x 580cc injectors on one rail.
|
your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
|
posted September 20, 2006 07:43 AM
I have some monster RCs in the turbo....it really fouls up the plugs if the bike idles for any length of time (which is a problem given our application).
It was also a nightmare to try to fit larger injectors into the stock TB/rail area...there is very little room to spare in there...i believe some machining of the rail and TB had to be done.
|
your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
|
posted September 20, 2006 07:44 AM
often wondered if it might be easer to incorporate a second set of stockers to kick in at a certain rpm range for drag only applications that might be a solution to the low end excess fuel delivery problem.
|
kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
|
posted September 20, 2006 09:53 AM
Edited By: kcadby on 20 Sep 2006 11:03
Sorry Karl...no I don't...we still have stock injectors in John's 270-280Hp 1260...
We ARE going to go with bigger injectors in the ZX1361 that the shop got for ME TO RACE next year...
FIRST 1361 I built here...STILL running great gonna try to go some LOW 8s with it...
It will have our DryShot of at least 150
I just asked Ryan and he doesn't remember the CC we have in his Bbusa but I know they are RC...either 350cc or 370cc
The bike runs "normal" with proper mapping...it just has LOTS of -30 to -40 in the map...
Actually had higher #s than that with the USB but we put a 3R on it to play with timing..
Since we still seem to have too much RF-noise to use the USB Ign. Module 
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted September 20, 2006 10:19 AM
quote:
often wondered if it might be easer to incorporate a second set of stockers to kick in at a certain rpm range for drag only applications that might be a solution to the low end excess fuel delivery problem.
My alky 750 worked that way, ran on 4 injectors until it got to about 90% duty cycle then the second 4 injectors kicked in and the duty cycle was halved between the then 8 injectors. That was with a standalone DTA ECU.
You can also run a second set of injectors off a (separate) Powercommander, mapping the throttle input to any 0-5v input you care to give it, boost or whatever. The second set don't have to be the same size this way.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC