entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted March 05, 2002 03:38 AM
longer clutch life??? shave the hub???
I have a Muzzy clutch kit and a Muzzy/falicon basket and I guess I have put at least 10 sets of plates in it during 340 passes. OK, so I am a fat bastid and needed to slip the living shit out of it to get 9.6's with stock motor & stock arm, but that's not the point.
The point is that on my bike with my set up the cap bottoms on the hub when the fibers are worn very little. A new fiber measures about .128" and after my last time at the track, the hat was bottomed out and most of the fibers measured .126", even .127" with LOTS of fiber left.
KC seems to be adding two thin steels to get more clutch life but i tried all sorts of steel combos and didn't like the way the clutch worked.
question:
with 11 fibers x at least .003-.004" more life in each, why couldn't we just pull the hub and machine .035" off the top, so that the hat has .035" more travel before the hat bottoms out????? Wouldn't that double clutch life???
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
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posted March 05, 2002 04:50 AM
Idealy that might work? but if your doing anything like me your burning up your clutches! not wearing them out so that wouldent help at all. Ive got the 2 small steels in and it works ok for me, dont take this the wrong way but are you sure your bottoming out the hub that quick?? I thought I had a lot of room for wear, but I cant rember, I have tried so many diffrent setups? it is crazy! Good Luck! andlet me know if it works, I think im going with the lockup?
Mad Mike
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted March 05, 2002 07:16 AM
I ran into the same problem, Karl. I wound up using a couple of thin steels(maybe 3) to get the stack height on the tall side. With only thick steels in it, there wasn't much travel left. I also added an extra flat spot on the puller shaft for even more oil. Other than possibly weakening the pressure plate somewhat, sounds like you may have a good idea.
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hott-rodd
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted March 05, 2002 08:50 AM
Hey Mike,
I think his point is that once the cap bottoms out you will burn the fibers because of the lack of pressure. Another thing to keep a good eye on the clutch hub(muzzy or stock). Once your steels groove the hub they don't slid in and out smoothly and you WILL burn many many clutchs.
Mad Mike, email me i have you stuff.
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 05, 2002 09:02 AM
The biggest problem you can/might run into with cutting the hub is...
You HAVE TO make sure the teeth on the pressure plate have enough engagement on the hub when you install a new (thicker) clutch pack!!!
I mean enough engagement when the clutch is RELEASED! and...when...just starting to engage...
If it doesn't??? YOU WILL RIP ALL THE TEETH OFF of the pressure plate AND the spring bosses off of the inner hub!!!
NOT a pretty picture?!?!?! I HAVE SEEN this done on Dragbikes in the past by people that didn't think about what they were doing when trying "new ideas" with UGLY results...
I'm NOT saying "don't do it" I'm just saying...BE CAREFUL!!! 
Lets make sure you KNOW how I'm doing John's clutch...with GREAT success...(accept that my 60fts aren't great  1.50s to HIGH 1.40s)...
I REMOVE one of the 2mm steels and replace IT with TWO thinner steel plates...
I put the two steels in (together) after the first fibre goes in...
I'm no brain-ee-ak...let alone an engineer (I DO wish I learned engineering now) but...I just like the idea of the HEAVIER plates being closer to the bearing that supports the hub...
I don't KNOW that it makes ANY difference where the two steels go in together...I've tried them in 1st, in the middle of the pack, AND on the outside...
It didn't seem to make any difference where I put them (my so-so 60fts didn't get better OR worse)...
KREXKEN's idea of useing some thinner steels through-out the pack...ISN'T a bad idea...as long as you give the clutch plenty of time to cool between runs...and/or can afford to replace the steels if/when they get burned...
I guess we must be lucky??? (slow 60fts???) John (225+lbs) has made at least 30-runs so far (best to date 9.56) on top of my MANY runs on this...only the SECOND clutch pack since the MUZZY kit...in OVER A YEARs worth of racing!?!?!? 
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted March 05, 2002 01:51 PM
thanks for the thoughts; made me do a calc
Since I began running the 1361 and 6" arm, I got about 40 passes on a clutch. After every day at the track I pull the clutch out and inspect the steels and measure the fibers. i did the same thing when I was running stock motor/arm.
With stock motor/arm, I would torch the steels, warping them so bad they were REAL hard to get out. I know this was from hot lapping and sliding the shit out of the clutch at hi rpm.
with the 1361, I essentially throw away the clutch as fast as my fingers can let go. The difference is NO warped steels yet, and pretty predictable fiber wear. That is until the hat bottoms out.
Last time at hRP, i did a 1.522 60', my best yet, and the next pass was 1.60, as were the following 3-4. Yep the hat was bottommed out, the steels were black (but not warped), but the fibers were at less than 1/2 of their wear.
A quick calc shows that taking out a 2mm steel and replacing it with 2 1.4mm, gives an additional stack height of 32 thousanths.
........................inches
take out 1 2.0mm.........0.0787"
put in 2x1.4mm...........0.1102"
add to stack height......0.0315"
replace the 2mm steel with 2 x 1.6mm steels and the stack height is increased by .0472"
When I tred the 2x1.4 solution 6 mo ago I didn't like the way the clutch didn't disengage easily, and that only adding .032". Damnation that clutch is a precision piece of work.
Maybe just scrape off .015" would be a good middleground for my bike?????
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hondo
Expert Class
Posts: 140
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posted March 25, 2002 12:24 PM
Hey entropy! What about machining the slots in the basket 0.035" deeper or whatever. Then the teeth on the hat would still have full egagement plus extra clearance to allow for full fiber wear. This obviously would be more expensive than shortening the teeth on the hat but I can see no drawbacks!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted March 25, 2002 12:49 PM
hondo,
Modding the "hat" may be a slicker way. When I get the Muzzy hub I'll look at hub vs hat. There is no rocket science here, just a minor tweak, eh? man, this is fun stuff!
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 26, 2002 12:33 AM
 Edited By: kcadby on 26 Mar 2002 00:37
hondo
The basket isn't the problem and...making the "slots" deeper would make NO diff. with the hat bottoming on the inner hub...
Karl HAS the right idea for the problem he is having
Just be careful about what I said above...when installing a NEW (thick) clutch pack...
If you figure the difference between a OEM clutch pack and a Muzzy pack...THAT should be the amount you can machine off the hub...
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ninjamissile
Expert Class
Posts: 222
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posted April 04, 2002 09:21 AM
Advice Please!!!
I have had my Muzzy clutch about a week, so at the weekend I tried it at the strip for the first time. To be honest I'm still not happy. I pulled the clutch this afternoon and had a look inside. The steels are discolored, some quite badly and both steels and fibres were dry. I have heard some guys drilling out the Muzzy holes and making them even bigger to let in more oil and some guys using two stock steels instead of one larger. I am just a novice so any help or advice would be welcome.
Ninja Missile
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted April 04, 2002 08:23 PM
Edited By: krexken on 4 Apr 2002 20:26
I'm not sure your problem is to few holes or holes to little or simply not enough oil to do the job. I didn't buy a Muzzy hub. I drilled my own hub with more holes than Muzzy drills and ground two flat spots on the puller shaft to let oil in. The hollow shaft the clutch is mounted on is pressurized. I made the flat spot roughly 1/8 wide. Perhaps a narrower groove made with a thin cut off wheel would work better though.
Did you allow adequate cool down time between passes? Hot lapping will scorch even the best clutch on these bikes.
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