entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 14, 2005 02:21 PM
Muzzy weld-up 4.6mm crank: caution!!!
Guys, make double-damn sure that the weld-up slag didn't get into the crank drive, it sure as shit was into mine...
GGGGRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!
This FUKKEN PISSES ME OFFFFFFFFFF.
Yep, a lot of careful dremel-ing got the crank gear to run smoothly with with clutch drive gear, but this is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE QC. Bolt-up MY ASS!!! Damn good thing that Cheese is a careful builder.
Add this fukkup to pistons which will not clear the crank counterweights without clearancing, and i gotta wonder if Muzzy right-sized the QA/QC dept.
I generally like Muzzy's products, and race parts is race parts, but basic QC????
Someone tell me that this is normal...
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted May 14, 2005 02:27 PM
Yikes....ive pretty much made up my mind to stay away from a stroker motor...stick with bore and boost 
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted May 14, 2005 07:12 PM
Sorry to hear this, as I consider you a friend! My feelings about the company are WELL KNOWN here. If it is normal, did it happen the first time??
This and plenty other reasons motivated me to build a NON-MUZZY zx12. I too have had problems but none (after my 1270). All of my problems since have been self inflicted.
YCIS, strokers are not the problem. A non-racing stroker has the same life-span as any motor. A racing anything, lives a shorter life. Quality control and customer service is the issue. Entropy, unlike myself, is much slower to respond. You know how I feel!!!
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zrxdean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted May 14, 2005 09:12 PM
That sucks. What does Rob Muzzy say? Somebody f*cked up.
Dean
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted May 14, 2005 10:53 PM
Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me!
Why did you go with the muzzy crank?
Don't your crank guy do strokers?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 15, 2005 01:04 AM
I went with with Muzzy, because I ALWAYS go with Muzzy.
I ranted because a friend of mine (Buddy) had the same problem with the crank AND with the pistons 6 mo ago.
Doug and Rob are pretty quick with assistance and that is appreciated, but Rob's gotta do something about QC.
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted May 15, 2005 09:10 AM
Well their is always the Muzzy stealth kit for good QC!!!
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted May 15, 2005 03:52 PM
Entropy, that sucks man. Glad Cheese caught it.
What happened to you other crank???
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted May 15, 2005 04:34 PM
That's what i mean. without a JC type to check even little detail, many have wasted alot of money. Quality products should be expected when you deal with top companys.
Parts the avg mechanic can INSTALL. Why should a MUZZY stroker require so much more checking and cleaning .
Why would MUZZY continue to sell these sub par cranks?
All these cranks are close to the same price, but not the same quality. Anyone heard of these problems from any other supplier?
Not dogging all MUZZY products but their cranks are SHIIIT.
ROB , this is not good business!
many of us are just starting the performance game. Parts like this can stop us before we develop into long term customers. Not many Karls out there.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=13&TID=17103&set_time=
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted May 15, 2005 07:27 PM
quote:
I went with with Muzzy, because I ALWAYS go with Muzzy.
I ranted because a friend of mine (Buddy) had the same problem with the crank AND with the pistons 6 mo ago.
Doug and Rob are pretty quick with assistance and that is appreciated, but Rob's gotta do something about QC.
This sucks Entropy, I really hate to hear anyone have problems with new parts, but you're like, the guy a lot of us look up to with hopes that we too can one day have kick ass engines like you have done. Good thing JC is on the case!
I have buddy Buddy here as well that has had some problems, but his is on a Busa........
Good luck man!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 15, 2005 10:01 PM
I have Platinum status at Muzzy, memorized Dave Turner 's extension, and am VERY slow to criticise Muzzy. You bet I have had my share of Muzzy fukups, never posted em before. Why now?
Because like Ninja12 pointed out, lots of folks view the stroker as plug n' play, and it should be. It isn't when the QC is poor.
Very easily fixed, Go Rob, GO! You don't have to be ISO certified to have a solid QC process; 3-ring binder with hand written QC check list would work fine.
My bike perspective on QC is affected by my job. I manage 6 Global "Preferred Suppliers" of rotating equipment for Chevrontexaco. $300,000,000 +/- worth of highly engineered turbines, compressors, pumps, etc per year. I see many facilities, from 3-4 person mechanical seal repair shops in Pekanbaru, Indonesia to giant turbines manufacturing facilities.
My analyst tracks warranty work as a Key Performance Indicator (KPI) so I hear about QA/QC issues on a daily basis. I'm pretty sensitive to improvement initiatives, 6 Sigma programs, etc, and know how easy QC can get worse or get better. Rob's can get better, I have 110% confidence, and will remain a loyal Muzzy customer.
Ryan,
My billet crank is sidelined, all journals way outa spec due to the oil pressure relief valve puking its guts out after i fukked around with shimming it and didn't get the circlip seated carefully.
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted May 16, 2005 10:46 AM
Think about how many people would buy cranks, IF they were easy to install.
If they came clean, all journal prepped and measured, with the crank re stamped (or a card with journal sizes), Just like a stock crank. We could use the manual to calc bearings.
HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST A MACHINIST TO DO THIS?
Assuming they measure the journals as part of the job , 9 journals would cost less than 2 minutes to fill out a card. The slag and tapered journals are inexcusable for all but junk producers IMO. Properly indexed , level journals, all strocked the same amount, balanced,
cleaned with at least a spec card.
This would not replace the excellent jobs builder do, but would allow many more players into the game. Maybe these engine won't last as long as a JC, LEE, or Carpenter built motor. They probably won't make as much HP either, but at 2-3 grand you can afford to try
with quality parts.
Since most builders don't warranty their engines if they don't catch it and your engine dies, usually within the first 1000 miles ,you just lost a 4-6 thousand dollar crap shoot.
How many times can you roll the dice? Karl you don't have to answer this one
This is the TRUTH!!!
'This sucks Entropy, I really hate to hear anyone have problems with new parts, but you're like, the guy a lot of us look up to with hopes that we too can one day have kick ass engines like you have done. Good thing JC is on the case!
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted May 16, 2005 01:05 PM
I am very sorry to hear about your issues with the Quality. that totally sucks.....
this year my department, built 66,700 batteries and we had a total warranty return of 33 batteries, of those we have 1 actual production failure. and 32 that were cell issues.
it can be done it just takes a simple QA system in place, shoot we voltage check 100% of our batteries, and that little deal, saves so many issues you can not believe.
Mad Mike
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kawachan
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted May 16, 2005 08:43 PM
I am a loyal Muzzy fan too. Sounds like a lil QAQC would solve a lot of headache for all involved.
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted May 17, 2005 02:54 AM
Whats scary is the source that welds them up. Does Muzzy still outsource the work?
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted May 17, 2005 05:09 AM
Entropy please know that this in NOT directed toward you, but a general comment to everyone that still maintains a blind loyalty to MUZZY'S. There is more than a quality control issue with this company. There is also an issue with the integrity of the information regarding using "GENERIC" methods or products that they do not sell. Everything with them is "proprietary" and expressed as some "greater cause or reason" why it is. Why a 4.6mm vs 5mm? Why a 2.4mm bore vs a 3mm bore? We were then told it was some "SAFE TOLERANCE" issues. With the implication that MUZZY's were being consumer oriented regarding what is best for us. However, 1290 kits with "STANDARD" size pistons are NO LESS safe or dependable. This is the type of "MISLEADING" information that saturates MUZZY's marketing of its products. The consumer ends of spending MORE money in the long run. The answer is to create a very dependant customer base because of weird sizes. Everything is proprietary!!! Which I understand why, but if ANYONE needs support we are stuck with one source.
If a company has a "proven history" of NOT CARING about the quality that affects its customers, then my loyalty to that company is something they do NOT respect. This is a very common Muzzy story. How each person responds to disrespect is their choice.
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted May 17, 2005 07:41 AM
quote:
Whats scary is the source that welds them up. Does Muzzy still outsource the work?
As far as I know they do still outsource the work.
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted May 17, 2005 09:26 AM
 Edited By: gunner on 18 May 2005 10:38
quote:
Entropy please know that this in NOT directed toward you, but a general comment to everyone that still maintains a blind loyalty to MUZZY'S. There is more than a quality control issue with this company. There is also an issue with the integrity of the information regarding using "GENERIC" methods or products that they do not sell. Everything with them is "proprietary" and expressed as some "greater cause or reason" why it is. Why a 4.6mm vs 5mm? Why a 2.4mm bore vs a 3mm bore? We were then told it was some "SAFE TOLERANCE" issues. With the implication that MUZZY's were being consumer oriented regarding what is best for us. However, 1290 kits with "STANDARD" size pistons are NO LESS safe or dependable. This is the type of "MISLEADING" information that saturates MUZZY's marketing of its products. The consumer ends of spending MORE money in the long run. The answer is to create a very dependant customer base because of weird sizes. Everything is proprietary!!! Which I understand why, but if ANYONE needs support we are stuck with one source.
If a company has a "proven history" of NOT CARING about the quality that affects its customers, then my loyalty to that company is something they do NOT respect. This is a very common Muzzy story. How each person responds to disrespect is their choice.
Being new to this board I'm somewhat reserved, but I agree totally with what is said by this man. I'm only new here and not to bikes or motors for that matter. I feel that Muzzy has had some very smart people working for him from time to time and Rob himself is no fool. But his products are very pricey and from what I'm reading here QC is lacking. In the past what now seems like a life time ago I had many dealings with Bill Hahn SR. His products were always on the high priced side of the scale, BUT and this is a Big BUT!! His stuff was always PERFECT in every sence of the word. If a company is going to charge top price they could all stand to take a few lessons from Bill..........It always hurt to write the check but I was always calling him up and thanking him for the perfect parts. Wisdom don't come cheap!
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entropy
Moderator
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posted May 18, 2005 09:15 AM
quote:
quote:
Whats scary is the source that welds them up. Does Muzzy still outsource the work?
As far as I know they do still outsource the work.
Yep, that's my understanding and it is up to Muzzy to work with their subs to establish QA/QC procedures.
On all "my" contracts, we are continuously working to do away with with holdpoints for QC witnessed inspections; rather we work to establish Supplier QA processes which obviate the need for sending out $1500/day door-to-door contract inspectors.
Muzzy and its subs are a much smaller scale but the process is the same: it ain't rocket science.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted May 19, 2005 04:15 AM
Not being Bashful about anything, I bought the CLutch Kit from Muzzys and the CLutch Hub still had the Drilling and Shavings from where it was machined. I put a note on the Board that Muzzy should not have let his Parts cleaner go. The Muzz Man himself responded and stated that he was going to check into this. He replied that they pulled a few boxes ready to ship and found the same thing. SInce that time, I have "NEVER" Heard of anyone receiving the CLutch kit in the condition mine was in.
My point is that they do listen, but have hired a group of Humans and that they cannot watch everyone 100% of the time and "I" Think really hate to see this type of thing.
Everyone knows how I like the Hindles (Lang and Lee) but even their pipe at the Collector assembly will come "Oval" and I called them about this and for a while this had gone away. But a friend of mine in Sweden just got his pipe yesterday and the SAME Thing again! Just too many Humans involved and this is what Happens!
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
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posted May 19, 2005 04:46 AM
What really bothers me is that the big companies way to conduct business now is to sub just about everything out to smaller companies...That causes alot of problems, because when there is a quality issue, we the customers get the runaround!!!...Call the company that sold you the item and they say it's the sub contractors fault, call the sub, they say it's the people who sold you the item!!!...The end result, we are left with the problems for an unessessary amount of time while the company and sub decide what they want to do!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted May 19, 2005 09:25 PM
Come on Rob, Tell us that MUZZY is going to do something about these cranks.
Clean, Nitrated and a spec card, how much would one like this cost from muzzy?
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robmuzzy
Expert Class
Posts: 295
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posted May 25, 2005 06:38 PM
Ouch!! My first question is to entropy. Did you contact us about the weld in the gear? If so please let me know which person you spoke to. We use these same cranks in our own engines and have not found any problems. We do not inspect every crank shaft. Believe it or not stroker cranks are a very low margin product for us and we have thousands tied up in cores. I have always thought that any problems would be found during the installation process and could be taken care of immediately. However I am learning that has not been happening. We have used different vendors over the years. The vendor we currently use has done a great job on all the cranks I have personally seen. Apparently he is not perfect either. Our standard policy on any product that the customer feels is not correct is to have the product returned to MUZZYS for evaluation. This way we can stay on top of problems and take action so they don't happen again.
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted May 27, 2005 05:34 AM
Rob that can not be so, due to I have installed the MTC pistons with the weldup crank twice now and both times I had to trim the pistons due to the hit the crank. I call and all that I get from the person I talk to is... yeah you have to cut them so they don't hit.
Well it would be nice to know this before you have the motor going back together!!!!!!!!!!!!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 27, 2005 08:07 AM
Rob,
(adding to what JC says)
I did not contact Muzzy when we saw that the gear had slag in it. JC said "call up Muzzy", I said let's just get on with the build. JC dremeled out the slag and now all is well, runs fine, starts great, etc, etc. I SURE didn't want to wait a couple weeks while the crank was sent to Muzzy and you dremeled out the slag.
I don't blame yr subs; hey, subs aren't perfect. The QA/QC process btween Muzzy and its subs needs to fine-tuned.
I ALWAYS support Muzzy because you guys support the sport and have cool stuff; I am NOT quick to criticise Muzzy, and I WILL be calling Dave Turner again sometime, for sure.
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