entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 27, 2002 10:20 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 27 Jan 2002 10:21
great suspension thread
http://www.psychobusa.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=3c54423421f8ffff;act=ST;f=4;t=391
the heavies are giving detailed advice for setting up the suspension for drags; come one, come all!!! 
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INTRA
Expert Class
Posts: 307
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posted January 27, 2002 01:46 PM
Entropy,the brand is Hyperpro,the spring is a little different then the 12's,and yes,it's purple,the shock is awesome,serious levels of adjustment(no factory shock re-valved can come close)when you sit on one,you can tell,when you ride it,and luanch it,your wrist just want's to to go full throttle-right off the clutch,also,frank is explaining it to the "T",if you can one foot luanch the bike,yes your weight will be low,and forward,hang your legs off,and there is some weight going backwards(not to mention your body sliding back)not many people want to drop another 1000$ (mininum price)for a shock/spring set up that works,last I saw,Highlands was still using stock shocks(but surely re-valved),plain and simple,I watched a stock length busa 2 mos ago hit 1.50to 1.53 60's with a hyperpro,don't even bother asking what tire they were using that day,you'd never believe me,bottom line,if you have everything else,suspension is the most important way to get,and keep the power to the ground,I just learned how important it is a few mos ago,I saw a guy over 250#'s bust a 1.4 60' on his old blue 8 over kawasaki,he does it every weekend,no wheelie bar,and he's got suspension-Frank says you need to luanch harder-I agree,dude,you ever sat there on the line and just thought to yourself"I gotta stroked out,extended,MT equipped fire breathin,green colored ass kicking machine"and looked at the sad fuck next to you on the line and smiled at him-knowing he's about to get his ASS DRUGG -then here comes the tree,second yellow and all hell breaks loose-GET THE PICTURE!!damn,I need my bike done now!
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toprat
Novice Class
Posts: 38
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posted January 27, 2002 08:28 PM
Intra..."I watched a stock length busa 2 mos ago hit 1.50to 1.53 60's with a hyperpro"
IMHO he wasted his money. I have seen a stock busa go 1.49-1.50 60' with the stock shock. And by stock busa I mean stock arm, pipes, clutch, and tires. The bike has 2" links in the rear and a strap on the front...thats it no other mods. He has been as fast as 9.57@151.
Its all in the rider. Any company will try to sell you this or that and tell you you need it. The best way to pick up time is not to be afraid to experiment.
I read a quote somewhere that went something like this "If you follow in someone else's footsteps, you will always be in second place"
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1991 ZX-11 Turbo
Too much is never Enough
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted January 27, 2002 09:05 PM
Those who always blaze their own path soon get lost trying to find the way!
you know who said that Me! Take from what others have tried and learn from it. and it is ok to try everything your self it just gets very very expensive! I try and do both.
Mad Mike
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Frank Adams
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted January 27, 2002 10:38 PM
entropy, I'm sorry you got a bunch of mixed opinions with your topic on the PBP site.
I just had a hard time agreeing with a few that acted as if you were running a 500hp SBS bike.
Either way the discussion did shed a lot of good knowledge.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 28, 2002 02:27 AM
Frank,
The info posted on yr site in response to my suspension questions is GREAT. And as I posted , my 3 passes with yr set up suggestions told me I am now on the right path. Excellent help.
Toprat:
being second to some of the folks on these forums doesn't hurt my feelings one bit . I like to experiment, but like to know that I am at least going in the right direction.
Joey,
I'd love to have a new aftermarket shock, but made of money, I am not. Less than $300 for a heavier spring and revalve may get me where I want to go. I gotta think on this one.
Of all the issues I have seen discussed about running a bike in the 1/4, the suspension setup generates the widest range of opinion, sometimes 180 degrees apart. Whatta cool sport.
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ZXALAN
Expert Class
Posts: 156
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posted January 28, 2002 12:21 PM
Nice run last night Karl, the track was so freakin crowded I didn't get enough practice in so I left and got drunk with the old man  You did what? A 9.20 right? Your 60's are getting better. Practice Practice, it ain't your shock, its your hand, thats the key to 60's in a nut shell. Gotta twist the grip. Trust me, I started to realise this more and more last night. I need to go to seally. Are they opened on sundays?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 28, 2002 02:32 PM
Edited By: entropy on 28 Jan 2002 14:33
Alan,
The schedule in Sealy's web site is only showing them open on Sat http://www.lonestarraceway.com/Schedule/schedule.html.
Yeh I got 9.22, 9.30, 9.32 and I KNOW I was not going WOT until near the top of 1st. Goddamn pansy or what? I think that going to WOT so late in 1st is what is lifting the front wheel AND is surely knocking down my 330's. I am guessing that if I can get to WOT at lower rpm, soon out of the hole, it will not lift much if at all (lower hp at lower rpm).
We both need work on 330', Sealy is the place. Just a question of when you can do it, eh? I really like HRP, but on Sun nite, the goddamn staging lanes looked like the parking lot at Walmart on the day after Thanksgiving. 
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted January 28, 2002 05:24 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 28 Jan 2002 17:31
MY.02 on something posted on that board...and...what I've learned/tried recently...
There is no way in hell your rear SHOCK can bottom out with 6"over swingarm especially if your bike is lowered...
Think about this...a ZX12 has 5.5" of rear wheel travel with stock wheel base, how much travel will it have (at the wheel) at +6" over? Hmmm???
Wanna know??? 7"! I spent hours learning how to make a graphed drawing in my Ulead Edit that shows this... Sorry I can't post it (frikin ImageshitStation)...
SO!?!?!? Do YOU have 7" between your tire and undertail with the rear shock extended all the way???
I SERIOUSLY doubt it...you probably don't even have the original 5.5" if your bike is lowered...
For the 1st time since we started racing John's bike...I'm paying attention to...and learning the rear set-up. I just couldn't do that for me AND still have John "jump on the bike whenever he wanted to"...
I don't think I agree that you only want 2" of travel in the rear...maybe on SOME bikes (with VERY light? riders)...
Travel is something that needs to be catered to each bike, rider, track/street condition IMHO...
The undertail I made is flat/flush with the bottom of the tail piece (inside)...
With the 3-hole links at the longest (lowest) setting...I had 4-1/2" (shock extended) between the tire and where it WAS touching the undertail (only on best launches) with ME on it.
This was with the spring at 6-3/4"...
It was OBVIOUS that we needed to change SOMETHING? when...new member of TFA...John 225+lb...(55+lb more than me) got his Vansons...
The LAST thing I wanted to do was make it STIFFer for John because then??? it would be WAY too freekin stiff for me
ALSO...John DOES still ride it on the street and it was just too low for that without going rock hard on the preload...
Sorry this got...RedElk...long...
I raised the rear to the middle-link-hole. This raised the rear 2" giving us 6.5" between the tire and undertail... With John upright and bouncing (spring still @6.75" with 0-damping) it never got closer than 3" tire to tail...
I thought we would be able to soften it for more sag but...wanted to video it 1st to see how the bike reacted...
I was right...John didn't do any "killer launches" his 1st time out but he did good enough (wheel off ground) to see it could go lower/softer on the rear...
I turned the spring out to 7" for last saturday...the sag was better (don't have numbers in front of me)...
John made 1/2 of his licence runs and didn't launch as hard as he did last week so...this weeks video looked like we can still go softer but...I want to see him launch harder before I soften it again...He ran 6.34 @ 118+ with a 1.7? (just drove off) 60ft...on his 1/2track licence run...
I plan on going as soft as it takes to use ALL of the 6-1/2" (shock extended) of space between the tire and tail when all is said and done...with John launching HARD (0-damping)...then I can play with the damping...
This should???work out good for both of us since it seemed to me like it could/should have been softer for ME on the bike before anyway...
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entropy
Moderator
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posted January 28, 2002 06:02 PM
Edited By: entropy on 29 Jan 2002 01:15
A wise ole man once said:
"Of all the issues I have seen discussed about running a bike in the 1/4, the suspension setup generates the widest range of opinion, sometimes 180 degrees apart. Whatta cool sport. "
KC, thanks for weighing in on this. I sure don't have any expertise to add, so I much appreciate the time you take to post your experiences. Your 9.0's speak for them selves.
I suspect that throttle and clutch management are even more important than a perfect suspension set up, so now I am leaving my "Frank" set up just the way it is and concentrate on getting my left hand knowing what my right hand is doing. The Frank set up seems to have done me well yesterday, so on we go.
The theory of all this is beyond me, so I listen to the experts; all of 'em, and I count you in that bunch.
PS: would you do Team Fat Ass members everywhere the kind favor of gaining 60 lbs??? Then we could just copy whatever you do
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entropy
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posted January 28, 2002 06:04 PM
Frank,
The info posted on yr site in response to my suspension questions is GREAT. And as I posted , my 3 passes with yr set up suggestions told me I am now on the right path. Excellent help.
Toprat:
being second to some of the folks on these forums doesn't hurt my feelings one bit . I like to experiment, but like to know that I am at least going in the right direction.
Joey,
I'd love to have a new aftermarket shock, but made of money, I am not. Less than $300 for a heavier spring and revalve may get me where I want to go. I gotta think on this one.
Of all the issues I have seen discussed about running a bike in the 1/4, the suspension setup generates the widest range of opinion, sometimes 180 degrees apart. Whatta cool sport.
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INTRA
Expert Class
Posts: 307
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posted January 28, 2002 08:49 PM
Toprat,the busa with the hyperpro that was going 1.50's had a stock completely bald tire on it,the guy did these times the first day he had it at the track,oh yeah,he's not a pro-rider either,as a matter of fact,his slammed gixer 1000 is on the right side of my time slip posted on the "1/4 mile" topic where I posted a picture of it(the slip),he strtched the bike now,but I know that there is no way any stock shock busa that day,at that track,with a tire anywhere near that one's condition would have gotten close(there were six there that day),and if your so positive that a stock busa like you say can do 60's you claim with an average rider,don't brag to loud,Jason Miller might jump on this thread(as he got on a simular thread) and throw some facts in your face about a stock busa's short times.Just imagine what the bike would have done that day if it had an mcr2,hell,even any street tire w/tread left.
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SpencerCyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted January 28, 2002 08:59 PM
What was said by the few that KNEW what they were talking about it absolutely TRUE. It APPLIES to ALL bikes that have the power that the ZX12 and BUSAS have now. All you need is just someone to set the thing up and show you how and why and then you will agree. With a PROPER set up suspension you can go faster easier. AS yes you CAN bottom out a shock,with 6 inch over arm I have done it and what happens is YOU WHEELIE. GUYS some of you may agree and some of you may not but this is FACT and DOES apply to your bikes MAYBE NOT your riding STYLE but to your BIKES period.
One thing to remember is to be a great rider and do things that others cannot do on bikes is you have to ADAPT. It is hard and sometimes takes years. But once you start thinking OUT OF THE BOX things start to happen. Those guys were giving KNOWLEDGE out that has taking YEARS to develope and I for one told my team owner to hush. Suspension is where your times are at,get it right and you will fly!!! The short times will improve and you will see that it is easier to ride the bike. I would bet that when you try and ride hard out of the hole most if not all of you are fighting the bike. Shock revalving is crucial as well as spring rate and leverage.
Thanks
Doug
SpencerCycle.com
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Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
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entropy
Moderator
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posted January 29, 2002 04:11 AM
Edited By: entropy on 29 Jan 2002 06:31
Doug = Mike Brown???
Doug,
I am confused...
On Frank's site "mike brown MAX V" signed his informative posts: "2001 Mickey Thompson World's Fastest Streetbike Champion".
This is remarkably similar to the way you sign yours
BUT, mike B gives a phone number (843 215 0686)which is different than yours at Spencer Cycle (800 510 1945, 704 642 0987)
I am leaning towards a new shock and have heard of a
Hyperpro (especial for drags),
a Fox,
and now a Penske
Custom Made Penske Shock. "Specifically made for your bike, and your weight.
They are arguably the best shocks on the market.
The 8981 series is only $725 + s/h/i
The 8981 Series is only $1099 + s/h/i"
my first choice is always to buy from Spencer
got any comments on the above?
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hondo
Expert Class
Posts: 140
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posted January 29, 2002 05:23 AM
Damn, you guys are saving me some set-up time!
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SpencerCyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted January 29, 2002 12:34 PM
Edited By: SpencerCyclecom on 29 Jan 2002 17:03
I am the Champion,Mike B is the bike/team owner. We are a team and that would make us both champions.
I can be contacted at
1-800-510-1945 or click on our banner ad.
www.spencercycle.com
Doug
SpencerCycle.com
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Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted January 29, 2002 12:46 PM
I...in NO WAY...was trying to say..."I'm right and THEY/YOU are wrong"...Doug...
I am the FIRST person you will see at the track trying to learn from people that DO KNOW what they are doing...because...
1:I have NEVER had the money to experiment/test with..."GOOD (costly) PARTS"...
2:It's MUCH easier/faster/cheaper to learn from other peoples mistakes/successes...
With that said...
I WAS going to post my "shock bottoming" statement as...
You can't bottom the rear shock without a lot of work to the tail section to allow the tire to "enter that area" with the increased wheel/axle travel that you WILL HAVE
with an extended swingarm...SIMPLE GEOMETRY/PHYSICS...
My statement was aimed towards "ZX12 owners" that haven't altered they're tail to make room for a tire/wheel to invade that area with the bike lowered (including me)...
In most cases (people/bikes that post on THIS BOARD)...THE TIRE WILL HIT SOMETHING...BEFORE THE SHOCK BOTTOMS OUT...
Sorry my original statement was taken the wrong way...
As for why I am softening THIS BIKE so much???
1: NO money for re-valve/springs...LET ALONE A NICE SHOCK...
2: I'm NOT affraid to..."think (try things) out of the box"...
I think I MIGHT have been the 1st one to try 16/45 gearing (with success) and...I'm also having GOOD LUCK??? with the 17/51 gearing we are using now (3.70s 3.80s...330s with bone stock motor)...
3: I'm STILL trying to set THIS bike up so two VERY different riders can ride it the same day with little or NO changes to the bike (other than turning damping screws) on the spot...
I hope we're cool on this now Doug??? and...I would like NOTHING more than learning suspension set-up from you guys...
Don't forget...we DO have one of MaxV Mikes swingarms on this bike...wish we could afford to buy a GOOD shock from you guys also ...
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SpencerCyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted January 29, 2002 05:09 PM
Kevin,,
I wasnt directing my post towards anyone,and you know you are cool with me man. Looking forward to meeting up with everyone when we get to Gainsville in March.
Doug
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Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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Frank Adams
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted January 29, 2002 10:52 PM
Edited By: Frank Adams on 29 Jan 2002 22:54
I shouldn't, but I can't resist.
One thing you'll find out at the track is you don't know who you can trust and with what information. Most teams will blow you off and not really share any info, unless it has something to do with buying something of theirs. Unfortunatly some of these teams doesn't realise or remember what it is/was like at the bottom of ladder and just getting started into racing industry. Helping others get to the level your at can mean positive things for everyone. Some just don't understand that because they feel like you should have to learn the hard way like they did. We'll that benifits no one, does it?
The advice I share comes from things that have worked for Me. Besides, what type of guy would try to bring someone down for helping others?
I saw somewhere there was a mention about the bike needing setup with only 2 inches of travel in the rear suspenion. Well that might be the case for a 1.65 60ft 60 inch wheelbase, but not a 68 inch wheelbase or anything in between. If your going to get out on the clutch the way you need to, your going to have to have a rear setup that will absorb the blow of the launch. No matter what is being said, I can show you video of EACH SBS bike over the last 3 years and ALL of them except one bike had over 2 inches of wheelbase travel.
Does a ZX12 or Hayabusa need a racing shock to go in the 7's? No, it does not. Even if I sold racing shocks I would not tell you that you need one, unless you bike was old school. There are less expensive options depending on your package. Like, fabbing the upper shock tower, lengthing or shortening the lower shock lever, changing the coil spring, changing the swingarm to frame center line, and of coarse revalving the shock.
If you guys want to go fast on your 12's, I suggest you speak with Ryan Schnitz or Rickey G, and not jethro on his Honda.
I say let's make everyone fast!
Frank
www.psychobike.com
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Frank Adams
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted January 29, 2002 11:02 PM
Oh btw, none of what I said is meant nor meant to be directed towards anyone on the site.
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toprat
Novice Class
Posts: 38
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posted January 30, 2002 05:59 AM
Good post Frank. As you pointed out there are a lot of ways to get around spending big money on a shock. And you dont need one to go fast. I am from PBR (Poor Boy Racing)...lol. I fabricate everything I can to save a buck. Swingarm, rear sets, triple trees, axle, header, calpier hanger, and swingarm rocker arm. One phrase that hasnt been brought up is Pivot Ratio. This has everything to do with how a shock acts. You can use it to increase or decrease leverage on the shock depending on how long of an arm you have on the bike. Well enough said for now.
Troy
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1991 ZX-11 Turbo
Too much is never Enough
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maxv185
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
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posted January 30, 2002 04:33 PM
toprat if you go on psychobike i did discuss leverage ratio.
frank which shootout bike are you referring to with 2-inches of travel? i personally agree with you on passing info. i entered this topic to help everyone. i have no interest in selling the shocks. i really do not make much money on it. i am interested in giving customers results. i have had my hands in 2 shootout bike suspensions. my own and alphonso thompsons. they both have my swingarms and suspension "setup". they have both been 1.31 60 fts. more than once. i am not bieng cocky, just proud of my accomlishments. these principals work on newer streetbikes, depending on tires. if you use a mickey it is cut and dry. vi will not go into any more detail unless someone is interested on a specific setup.
kevin, how have you been? haven't heard from you. how is the swingarm doing?
mike
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Frank Adams
Parking Attendant
Posts: 12
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posted January 30, 2002 06:07 PM
MAXV, 1.31 60fts is something to be VERY proud of. There is no doubt on My end that you know how to make your combo's work. But when your working with the shocks of yesterday compared to the stock shocks that are out on these bikes today is a huge difference. You take an older gsxr shock for an example. There was very little adjustability and you pretty much had to go with a aftermarket shock. But the stock shocks on the bikes today have a decent compression dampener setup. The rebound part of these shocks are a different story though. My shock is being revalved right now and should be almost finished.
On My Busa with the stock shock, I've run a best of a 1.37 60ft on a clutch which already had 21 passes on it. I did that by using 280pds of total static pressure in My clutch, using a MTC multi stage of coarse.
The SBS bike that runs with 2 inches of travel is this one:
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maxv185
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
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posted January 30, 2002 06:14 PM
Edited By: maxv185 on 30 Jan 2002 18:24
i also helped craig with his suspension and he runs my clutch setup. that is on this bike you have pictured. it is craig hanson's from flo-tec. duck is his rider.
mike
p.s. old stock shocks and new stock shocks are very different. new stock shocks work on the same principal as aftermarket shocks.you have valves that pass fluid and is opposed by nitrogen pressure. it is tuning this action, compressing and rebounding, where the advantadges and disadvantadges lie. the advantadge to the after market shock compared to the new stock shock is, the after market shock is designed to be more flexable as far as valving goes. the stock shock is designed for one purpose only. dragracing is not that purpose. al that said, you can obtain satisfactory results with either. i will leave it up to the prospective buyer to decide.
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted January 30, 2002 08:55 PM
Max, I'm interested. I just plan to bracket race my ZX12. 1361 with hopefully around 200hp, 185lb rider, stock shock, 6-8 over arm(undecided on length), no lock up or slider, MCR2, 16-46 gearing. Thanks
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