dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted February 05, 2003 03:57 PM
Sometimes I think it's helpful to be reminded that there are people like this in our midst. It is good to read, It keeps you aware. I say let it flow but code it with some kind of "hatespeak" icon so I can skip it if i'm not in the mood to get pissed off.
Doug
  
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted February 05, 2003 04:34 PM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 5 Feb 2003 16:35
This is a tough subject... as I have learned through my years of being on this site, not everyone agrees with me, and I dont always agree with everyone.
My views on the current Iraq situation are mixed. I feel that there is a need to support the troops who are over there. Currently there are at least three members from this site serving in the Middle East. On the other hand I also have a very difficult time dealing with the American "media machine" and the way that it presents the USA's views.
As much as I want to wholey support the US in their causes, ALL of us who are members of this site must keep one important thing in mind. We are a global group at bikeland. Hey... freek and I are in Canada... and guess where the server is... Granted there are many US members of this site, but there are also members from many many other countries in the world. They may not all share the same points of view as say, someone in Arkansas or Oregon.... we have to respect that. In otherwords we cant paint over this conflict with a US brush... shit ... what would you guys do if we had a group of Iraqii ZX12r bikeland members? If they were part of this community...
anyways... I also have a bit of a problem with the "inevitable" conflict we as a world are about to enter. I find it strange after listening to Colin Powell's speech, that all of his points about Iraq "coming clean" etc etc are laughable if you consider in a global context that the US itself has a far greater and more deadly arsenal than any other country on this planet... Imagine if you will, the US being presented with an ulitmatum to "fess up" and provide all the info about all of their weapons etc etc.... It would never happen.
This whole situation is so farsical that it reads like fiction.
Anyways... I just try to keep an open mind and hope we all get to live another day...
and BTW worm~hole... 9/11 did indeed suck.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
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posted February 05, 2003 06:24 PM
hrmmm though i would venture a side note that the usa has not used said weapons on its own people, nor have we threatened the use of WMD on another.
every action that we HAVE done iniraq has been in the realm of surgical conventional strikes. the only reason for poison gas in a city is to wipe out the citizens, aka GENOCIDE. the only one releasing chemical and/or biological weapons in iraq has been the iraqi guvnah himself.
yes, we have a deadly arsenal. we have a large military that is highly trained. we have many things. but someone asked why the usa was being the world's police officer. if we wanted to we could just say screw you guys, and take over all the chicken-feed little crap countries
but reality returns, and you realize that the only way people will be happy is to have their own way, and our way is not necesarily the way. BUT we DO reserve the right and maintain the ability to protect the rights of others who HAVE so chosen their own course to CONTINUE to do so.
the only reason iraq became an issue is because of its invasion of Kuwait. let us not forget what brought this entire stupid mess to be. Sodom hussein got a wild camel hair up his backside and decided he wanted more oil and money for himself, and decided to go and take the weakest neighbor he had. because of this propensity he showed, the UN has provided some guidelines. which he has utterly failed to meet, and 12 years later...the same tired crap again and again.
we could argue this is just the usa protecting its oil interests, but really there is more to it than that, the world relies on oil from the middle east. not just the usa. like it or not ALL nations in the world are affected by the global economy. NOONE benefits from chaos and widespread fighting.
as far as the american media machine, well, as an insider in the american media umbrella, they are a WHOLE lot less 'pro america' then you may think. there is plenty of patriotic type crapola in times where it is profitable, but a lot of the time it is just as much 'the govt knew about 9/11 beforehand and let them all die" crap. they are also a liberal media outlet, so there are a lot of 'save the poor starving *insert non-usa country name here* children, and other such crap.
anyway i just wonder why it is aconflict the world 'is about to enter'
has the conflict ever ended? or is this just another sad episode in history of people not accepting anything different?
as far as american armaments, check out a janes ships, planes, etc ;P i was appalled at some of the stuff they openly talk about, and im like geez, why do we give away all our good secrets? deterrent....
until the bleeding heart liberals take the last vestige of freedom away in the name of 'a fair deal to everyone, everyone deserves to live as they wish without working for it' the usa will still have the ability to help protect ourselves and our allies.
egads i hate politics... hehe
  
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Megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
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posted February 05, 2003 06:27 PM
Fish,
I don't want war either, but it's ludicrous to compare Iraq's Arsenal and its intended use to the US arsenal. This "farsical" US arsenal has saved this World's along with Canada's bacon at least twice, and it stands ready to protect the world and even your country again if necessary, something Canadian's aren't currently prepared or ready to do themselves.
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nedragr
Zone Head
Posts: 504
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posted February 05, 2003 06:40 PM
Edited By: nedragr on 5 Feb 2003 18:56
quote:
Imagine if you will, the US being presented with an ulitmatum to "fess up" and provide all the info about all of their weapons etc etc.... It would never happen.
Here's a link mailed to me today. It's Satire, but the numbers are true. It kind of puts a spin on how media can distort or mislead people through print and reporting.
This is what I call mass destruction. Living in ND all my life, we grew up knowing that if the time came and Russia decided to turn the key, that we were ground zero. There's a missle silo every 20/30 miles around my town. There is peace through deturance.http://www.theonion.com/onion3904/north_dakota.html
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted February 05, 2003 07:54 PM
regarding the "why can the US have weapons but not iraq" thing, the surface answer has already been given: that america is nto run by a coldhearted killer, and more importantly, he's not solely in power of those weapons. if bush says "lets nuke half the world" for the hell of it, it aint gonna happen no matter how much of a hissy fit he throws. if bush were to start goin ballistic (no pun intended), the public would cry foul & recall him. americans simply arent as warlike or racist as people in many other parts of the world, tho they aint no borderline socialist canadians either. what really drove this home for me was a rather long trip my sister & her husband took a few months ago. they travel alot, and on this trip they happened thru Algeria (certainly nto a neighbour of iraq, but i'd place them in teh same general category of courntries, could be wrong here). they experienced incredibly bold faced racism. in a govt office (border i believe), they waited in line to be processed like everyone else. but when it was their turn, did they get called? hell no. the'd call someone over from behind them, someone more "local". of course, this aint the end of the world, its just waiting time. but would u get away with this in the US? not likely. there's the odd such occurrence, sure, but in my experience, most americans treat each other (including immigrants & visitors) with civility. they may sometimes not like each other or publicly bash the other group, but on a one to one basis, where most racism & unfounded hate is generally dropped, people at least get along & act fairly. not so in algeria. the racism is blatant and personal.
as i said before, this is prolly not entirely the people's "fault", in that they are led to believe westerners are all eveil devilworshipers or whatever, but that doesnt excuse the behaviour. we dont let a white redneck of fthe hook fer killing a mexican cause he belieed it was his right. fortunately, our media, tho often a piece of crap, is open and expansive enough that pretty much every view of a situation is published, and we dont jsut see one reported "truth". at least we have a chance to decide for ourselves.
i just dont get how come noone has assasinated saddam yet. i mean, a country of fanatics & not one is against their oppressive leader? give me a break!
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Hells Dark Lord
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Posts: 7981
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posted February 05, 2003 08:54 PM
and then you have the US military sitting overe here in the middle of nowhere waiting for the dam politicians to decide what they are going to do...While myself and my friends sit here 7000 miles from our loved ones and they sleep in there own beds everynight.....am I bitter, ya dam right. I dont mind doing my job, and I dont mind being here, I mind the waiting game, let s not give him anymore time to hide his weapons or move then. Lets not give him more time to prepare a defense for our arrival...I personally dont care about the oil, or the ground its in. I care about what terrorists have done the US people and our soil....the Effect that they have had on our children and society....I want to either do this and go there and take his dumb ass out of power and come home, or I wanna come home and go to DG5 with you all ....that is what I want and think about all this....only my opinion, but I guess its worth somehting seeing I am one of the thousands sitting my ass over here eh......later all Jim
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redelk
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Please... speak to the hand.
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posted February 05, 2003 09:19 PM
This thread is a PERFECT example of what makes this forum so fuckin' GREAT! There have been many viewpoints shared here and not all of the are in agreement. This is cool. There has also NOT been any "NO! YOUR WRONG, YOU (fill in the blank)!" crap either. Even if the debate gets even more heated then this, about the most inflammatory the "name calling" will get is something like, "you friggin' idiot!".
Discussions of such serious topics have the opportunity to educate and enlighten all of us with it's diverse opinions. Even for those that do not post, but just read. It's when the debate degenerates into extreme viewpoints towards a race, nationality or religion is when I totally lose my interest in "diversity" and start letting my simple minded "dictator mentality" kick in. Such dribble not only offers nothing to "learn" from, but all the worthwhile content that came before it is lost as well. This is not cool.
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Zhooligan
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posted February 05, 2003 10:44 PM
HDL it sucks that you have set and wait why the politicians play games etc. But I would point out that why this time is passing Bush has in fact used the time to build up and prepare so that you are not hung out to dry. The alternative could be what we of the Viet Nam era got to see and be a part of. Send guys in to fight a war that we were not allowed to shoot back at and or had little if any support and most importantly no clear mission and most certainly no way of actually winning the war.
I have to tell you that when I awake each morning I check the news in hopes that Saddam has quit, croaked or been kicked out. Probably silly but it would be wonderful.
This thread reminds me of a quote I often have shared with my own children as they have faced challenges in their own lives. Martin Luther King once said "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted February 06, 2003 12:16 AM
i agree whole heartedly with you Z, we over here are more than prepared to do what needs to be done. I am in the most well trained armor unit in the Army, and we are the most familiar with the terrain and weather, haveing been here for nearly 5 months now.....
However, there is little comfort in all of the happenings while I lay in my cot at night while my family is back home in the states....
I know you understand what I am saying as do most everyone here...not trying to bitch, just voiceing my opinion, and the opinion of lots of other guys that sit here in this sand box with me while we wait on Bush and the others to decide what they want to do
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slug
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Out in search of my mind...
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posted February 06, 2003 04:20 AM
HDL: i totally understand your viewpoint, sitting at general quarters for 2 days off and on, tomahawks ready to fly, permission to fire, but no order to fire. waiting. targeted. keyed up for many of us the first time to fire real live ordnance into a military target, not dummy into utah from the pacific.
we were finally going to do our job.
in the end, the liberal govt decided to give sodom hussein another 15 chances, so we just hung out in the persian gulf, with 15ft of water under the keel, sucking that nasty filthy water into our seawater systems, an easy target for anyone doing a flyover since we could only submerge a little bit and even an idiot could see a 300ft+ long black shadow under the water....(not to mentiona periscope sticking up...nothing like watching a sea-snake swim past the video monitor....or a soda can.....*I* sure wasn't gonna be the first one to open the external hatch hehehe)
the waiting is the worst.
keep it real folks!
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OZZY
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Posts: 3172
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posted February 06, 2003 04:59 AM
HDL, you would not be "normal" if you didn't wish to be home with your family. It is attitudes such as yours that make our military and country so great.
It is that attitude of doing what has to be done, like it or not, that has made the USA so great, and kept the world as free and stable as it is.
No normal person here at home wants any of our "boys" to be in harms way. AND the majority of the nation is behind you guys and gals.
As we all know the vocal minority is what is heard.
In my opinion, the anti war retoric evolving here is an orchastrated one, being manipulated by terrorist elements.
Many "students" have been admitted into this country from the middle east, some of which are only here for one thing and that isnt education.
They are on campus's all over the country and an easy format for them is the "peace" demonstration. The many students participating believe in their cause,whether we here agree or not, have that right. It is just so sad that at some of these demonstrations they are being used as pawns for others with a different cause.
Our media does not help out either. They show this stuff and ignore showing the history of where these valuable rights came from or how they were kept. Hell, guys I work have never watched Ollie Norths war stories. They have no idea what guys like you go through for guys like me.
The media has let 9-11 drop off the radar, people are forgetting. Pictures are the best way to tell a story , and the pics the media are showing are of the protesters.
The 10- second attention span of America is alive and well.
I hope all of you over there come back over here, safe and soon.
Thank you.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted February 06, 2003 05:43 AM
hey fellas I like to hear the support from all of you all. I t is reasuring tho listen to your points of view and it reinforces the resolve that we have here, and that we are infact doing the right things....we somtimes question our persence here, or or part in the army....espicially when its as contriversial as this is....It seems to me to be similar to the questionable circumstances that surrounded the soldiers in Vietnam.. I am in now way comparing the 2, there is no comparison....other than the fact of the support or lack there of of the US people....it is so good to hear all of you alls opinions....thanks again...Jim
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Otis
Needs a job
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Posts: 3028
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posted February 06, 2003 06:14 AM
Slug you're right on the mark brother, Amen.
HDL. If the administration wouldn't have had to be dealing with the Democrats (read: Socialist), their Media partners and the liberal anti-war pukes, Bush and our team would have had you fellas over there take care of this problem months ago. It'd have been done and over with by now you'd be back home and we'd be talking more smack about you FOR SURE being at DGV. I for one and with you brother and hate that you're sitting around there waiting for the word. And when you do come home, if one and I mean one person says anything cross to you about being over there fighting an unjust war, you let me know and I'll be there taking appropriate action, and I'm sure you know what action that will be.
Chris
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It's a free country brother
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worm~hole
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Posts: 10623
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posted February 06, 2003 06:57 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 6 Feb 2003 06:59
I'm with our men and women in spirit who are war....thanks for doing an awesome job so that these anti freaks can have their silly little platform to whine about how their feelings are hurt my us hawks.....fuck'em, right-hook'em....be safe brothers and sisters...
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bagster
Zone Head
Posts: 630
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posted February 06, 2003 07:53 AM
I thinks it really sucks that saddam is going to have to use some of the things that he "does not have" before we get support from our own country and the rest of the world to kick his ass OUT good and hard!
I also couldn't believe it when france's representative at the U.N. said that we have to "give saddam a chance to come clean" AFTER Colin Powells speech. Haven't we already given him a chance to come clean?
Saddam is an a$$h@le plain and simple, its time to stop him.
I just hope they brought plenty of firefighting equipment this time to stop those oil wells quickly. Eco-terrorism sucks too!
Zhooligan, I also wake up to the news and hope that saddam did the right thing.
HDL take care and good luck over there bro.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted February 06, 2003 08:08 AM
quote:
Fish,
I don't want war either, but it's ludicrous to compare Iraq's Arsenal and its intended use to the US arsenal. This "farsical" US arsenal has saved this World's along with Canada's bacon at least twice, and it stands ready to protect the world and even your country again if necessary, something Canadian's aren't currently prepared or ready to do themselves.
Hey Mega.... I dont mean to sound ignorant here.... but I didnt exactly fail history, and it totally escapes me as to how the US has "saved Canada's bacon at least twice" .... apparently I must have been asleep in class when we discussed that...
please enighten all of us Canadians as to how you guys have saved our asses...
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted February 06, 2003 08:11 AM
quote:
Slug you're right on the mark brother, Amen.
HDL. If the administration wouldn't have had to be dealing with the Democrats (read: Socialist), their Media partners and the liberal anti-war pukes, Bush and our team would have had you fellas over there take care of this problem months ago. It'd have been done and over with by now you'd be back home and we'd be talking more smack about you FOR SURE being at DGV. I for one and with you brother and hate that you're sitting around there waiting for the word. And when you do come home, if one and I mean one person says anything cross to you about being over there fighting an unjust war, you let me know and I'll be there taking appropriate action, and I'm sure you know what action that will be.
Chris
Otis, We were there and the "Democrats" were behind Bush and it was Bush "sr" that called it off! It was the Democrats that got pissed that he did not finish the Job the first time and that is a main reason he did not get re-elected. So now, jr is trying to finish Daddys Job? HDL would not be there if the job had been done right the first time period!
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted February 06, 2003 08:18 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 6 Feb 2003 08:20
and BTW..... since yer so good at "saving Canadians" perhaps you should politely "shut up" before you put your giant American foot in your mouth or I will start to bring up your country's wonderful past history and "saving Canadians" for you.
Lets start with Dieppe, shall we? Or perhaps you would like to retract your previous statement?
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rs
Expert Class
Posts: 137
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posted February 06, 2003 09:50 AM
One of the things that make this country great is that we have good neighbors to the North and South to help protect our borders.
I can't help but feel that the U.S. is not getting support from many countries due to the fact that the current situation is not a pressing issue for them. Most of them aren't too worried about the next round of terrorist attacks. They probably feel that if they stay out of it and even if they protest it to some extent that they will stay out of the bullseye and not become targets themselves.
I can assure you however that if they become targets it will be the U.S. that they will expect to come to their aid. I wish we would keep track of who supports us and only help the ones that support us. I know that a lot of people think that we only do things because of oil or other interests in the area. While those issues are part of the big picture, I would like to think that we get involved because of the other reasons. Hell, we provide billions of dollars of aid to countries that have nothing to offer us other than an increased tax burden for the american worker.
I know that we have and are involved in a some underhanded operations in the world and I am not proud of those things in the least bit. I do feel that we do a lot more good in the world than we do harm. It would be nice that since we are so willing to put our tax payers children and cash on the line to help others, that they in turn would support us when we ask for that support.
I don't think that there is any country out there that really believes we are going to take over control of Iraq to control the oil. That is just an excuse to not support us. If we take control of the country, it will be short term until a government of the Iraqi people can be established.
Although we have aquired this country in an underhanded manner, I can assure you that it would be political suicide for our government to forcibly aquire another country. The people of this country would not stand for that type of action.
At this point it is fruitless for us to try to get the UN to enforce the resoltutions that Iraq has been in violation of for the past 12 years. We should just provide the information we have on the Iraqi involvement with Al-Queda and stand on our previsous declaration. We have a right to defend ourselves from terrorism and to retaliate those that have caused or supported the terrorist actions. You either support us in this or you are against us. End of story!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted February 06, 2003 10:05 AM
Fish, I have been in Canada more than a couple times (Originally from Toledo Ohio. Back in the late 50 & Early 60 a friend of mine raced at Harewood! Good for me, but bad for you is the low value of the Canadian dollar vs US Dollar. (It took a while to figure out that the $3.00 per gallon was first 1.4 gallons, and the price per US Gallon was 2.14, then US Dollar discount made it $1.49 per gallon. I could then breathe again after crossing that Ambassador Bridge!  Me Personally, the only thing I do "NOT" like about Canada is the "French" Influence, where it seems to be there way or no way AYH! (Did I mention that my Dodge van was made in Windsor?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
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posted February 06, 2003 10:50 AM
Edited By: Otis on 6 Feb 2003 10:53
Vincent my friend, you need to check your facts. The reason Bush Sr. didn't finish it, and trust me he WANTED to, is the stupid UN Resolution that only called for the "saving" of Kuwait. The UN resolution prohibited taking Saddam out. Bush Sr. went along with them, I'm sure now to his own disappointment. Of course the Media won't tell you that now, and of course the Demorcat pundits won't dare tell you. That's just another fact showing the hypocricy of the Democrats. Trust me on this and if you don't believe me, look it up.
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It's a free country brother
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Hells Dark Lord
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Posts: 7981
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posted February 06, 2003 11:03 AM
dam this tread sure got changed didnt it....lol I want to thank all youi again for the support.....
RS there is another reason that we are here, its TERROROISM, Saddam is nothing more than a terrorist, he is in the same league as Bin Ladden. We can not sit around a tolerate him or the likes of him any longer...The US, and the world has been tolerating them not dealing with them for far to long. In the process we have gone soft in out defense against terrorism.
We the world needs to stand united against it and take a zero tolerance policy. Only if the world stands together, and persues the capture and punnishment of such individuals will this problem go away. I have the means to deal with him on our end......lets just hope they let us...
Now lets talk arsenals....lol, wha Saddam has can not be called an arsenol....half of his tanks dot run, and he has very little ammunition for them either....90% of his sights have no Thermal abilities...and his soldiers that is a nother story all together, half starved, under clothed, and never paid.
We on the other hand have all new state of the art equipment..I will give you a few examples. 1. I just received a new sight for my truck. It is a thermal imaging sight that has the ability to see 20km yes that is right, I can see now 20kilometers, with 0 light....and at that distance I can lase a target, getting a 10 digit grid. This grid will be accurate to a distance of 60 meters. What that all means is I can get a location of a target at night, and have artellery hit it first round every time......I have artillary support that can be laser guided to hit a target with a hit probability of 99%, out to 17km. we now have a grenade launcher machine gun that can launch 375 40mm grenades out to 2200 meters...each greande having a 5 meter kill radius, you do the math on that one...lol
if we have to fight Saddam, the biggest treat to us in trucks is the mines, he has a lot of those and uses them...
Ok enough of the aresonal lesson....rest assured that if we get into a old school fight with him he will lose, and lose big.....but then again you all already knew that...lmao later all
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted February 06, 2003 11:06 AM
Otis, I am aware of the "UN Resolution" Just like now. You are saying that Jr. Has Bigger ones?
Fish, I forgot to add something "Very Important" about Canada. When WWII Broke out, The RCAF took Black men and trained them to be fighter pilots, when in the USA, they were refused. When the Famous "RED Tails" Black Fighter Squadron was formed, it first consisted of Black Airman that came back from Canada and trained the Black Fighter pilots over here. This air group was famous for one thing "They Never Lost a SINGLE Bomber when they were flying cover" If it had not been for the "Progressive" Canadians, who knows how long it would have been before Black Americans would have been allowed to fly Fighters?
Did I mention that the "End" of the "Under Ground" Rail way that smuggled Slaves out of the south to Freedom, ended in "Canada"! I personally thank God for the Canadians, you will never find me saying anything against the "Country" , maybe a few Citizens I heard that a few of them run Boards that we post on Bikeland and ZX12R.Org!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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rs
Expert Class
Posts: 137
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posted February 06, 2003 11:49 AM
Jim (HDL),
Read the last paragraph of my earlier post again.
Be safe and make us proud! You and all of our brothers on the front line will be in our thoughts and prayers until your safe return home.
I am very proud of the men and women who willingly put themselves in danger to protect the freedom that we take for granted in our great country. Your sacrifices are not in vain!
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