shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 21, 2008 11:02 AM
 Edited By: shiggsy on 21 Apr 2008 12:55
Datalogging. So whats occuring here then?
I had a problem with the bike in the past not running very well which in part was down to Cam and Crank sensors slowly dying of age and which I managed to finish off with my own electrical ineptitude. New ones got the bike running good but also running a bit rich low down and at motorway cruising speeds its developed a trait where it doesn't seem to know if it wants to run rich or lean.
Its quite easy to invoke and control this, I can open the throttle up on the motorway and it will go lean and I can hold it there for as long as I like. If I close or ease the throttle shut it will suddenly surge as it goes rich again.
I had a WegoII datalogger on my bike until recently when I switched to the Innovate system which allows you to log more than just AFR, revs and TPS and allows logging for much greater time periods, so I was keen so see what was going on.
The images below show whats happening, I increase throttle and the injectors reduce, AFR goes lean. Decrease throttle and the injectors open back up, AFR goes rich. I thought it might be due to some other ECU input failing or having a bad connection but I'm logging just about everything and all seems well. Only common thing I can see is that the TPS is usually aund 7.5% when it happens. When it goes lean the AFRs near the hot spot of 14.7 so I try not to keep it in there too long.
Bike is stock apart from Kleen air removal, swapping ECU for my spare made no difference.. Anyone got any ideas about what might be going on?
  
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted April 21, 2008 07:08 PM
Well the A/F tracks the injector %, as it should. But the TPS seems to be inverse to the throttle command. I would think about what you might have done or what may have happened to the TPS.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 22, 2008 02:19 AM
Edited By: shiggsy on 22 Apr 2008 05:41
Hi Doug,
I can assure you the TPS is tracking the throttle commands correctly, although I know it doesn't look like it in these examples. If you take the starting position of the TPS as zero at the bottom left corner of the chart, if it was doing the inverse of the throttle, when I open the throttle it would dissapear downwards off the chart. So to get it on the chart, zero would have to be the top left corner which would then indicate I'm cruising at about 85% throttle, which I'm definately not 
If you take the first image and look to the left of the 'Descrepency' label and look up that column, everything seems in synch, throttle closing, bottom line TPS dropping, next line up injectors following down, 4th line up RPM dropping, 5th line up IAP voltage dropping. Compare this to the far right side where we have a slow increase, throttle is increasing, TPS, RPM, IAP increasing but the injectors decide to drop off 5%.
I can post up an image tonight to show TPS operating correctly.
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shiggsy
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posted April 22, 2008 11:20 AM
Edited By: shiggsy on 22 Apr 2008 12:24
Here we go, TPS going to 61%, injectors going to 39%, revs to 6344 rpm. You can also see at 13 minutes the injectors doing their little backing off trick with the TPS rising through 7.5% before kicking back in again as the TPS drops.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
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Posts: 2713
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posted April 22, 2008 09:18 PM
I have a real hard time reading these. I wish I could stretch them out for better resolution. I really like looking at data.
What I thought I saw on the TPS was not a global error but a spot error, like a damaged section of the rheostat coil. It starts out OK but then goes wrong. Don't know, but TPS's are electromechanical and I will always suspect something like that rather than an all electronic component. Sorry, I'm just guessing-I can't really read it clearly.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 23, 2008 04:37 AM
I know what you mean. It doesn't look so bad to me because I'm used to looking at it and I also have an image of whereabouts I was on the road at that point in time and what I was doing. If I open up an example of someone elses log it appears to be a complete unitelligable mess to me too.
Thanks for looking though
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted April 27, 2008 04:35 PM
Edited By: 2000redrocket on 27 Apr 2008 17:42
i just got a wego3 and am watching manifold vacume/presure,afr,rpm. on my buke i am miffed cause it runs at 4000rpm steady crusing at 11 to1 some times in the 10 to1 area. that was factory. no wonder the milage sucks.
when pulling out i see it go real lean past 3000 then slowly go rich to 4000 the ok area is 3500 to 3800. i am changing the speed density area and makeing it better i got the 4000 area in the 12s now and ritchened up the 28 to 3500 area at lite load. i am amazed how off it was. the "muzzy syndrome" was way rich makeing it fall on its face. from say 1800 to 2600 i leaned it out slowly and now the syndrome is gone.
i will need to realy see your logg for a while. it has a lot of stuff on it.i do not know if you know it but our bikes at idle are someware in the 20% area. take your wide open throttle voltage value as 100% than the idle voltage value and readjust your chart# max should be 5.0v or real close i think idle voltage is around 1.05 or so which it the 21% i am getting.
the manifold sensor at my house is about 3.65vdc engine off ambint pressure.1vdc 10cm hg 4.2vdc 90cmhg in the 76ish cmhg concidered atmospheric pressure. it is fun looking at the values and fixing them.
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tshultz
Zone Head
Posts: 556
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posted April 27, 2008 04:54 PM
2000 red rocket are you going to have your bike ready for maple grove this Friday.
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ridgeracer
Pro
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posted April 28, 2008 06:24 AM
What I see in your data is that if you remove the huge jump in AFR the data still tracks as expected. If I were to show you just the throttle, iap, and injector during the lean time you would see more throttle produces more fuel. It looks normal if you ignore the giant jumps.
Its like you have a sudden offset or baseline shift. If it was me I would log the normally slow change inputs that establish the base line; the static air pressure sensor, air temp sensor, and the water temp that goes to the ECU.
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 28, 2008 07:01 AM
Edited By: shiggsy on 28 Apr 2008 08:06
quote:
Its like you have a sudden offset or baseline shift.
Yes, its like the ECU is on some borderline algorithm between normal and cruise mode.
quote:
If it was me I would log the normally slow change inputs that establish the base line; the static air pressure sensor, air temp sensor, and the water temp that goes to the ECU.
I'm logging all those and more, I just removed their traces from these images so it wasn't so cluttered There are no other sensors that are randomly moving when the injectors decide to drop and come back in again. I even have 6th gear logged incase of a bad conenction there. I thought I had cracked it with that as a trace I looked at had 6th losing zero voltage and disruption to the AFR matched it, but for these section 6th remained at zero volts so it wasn't that.
Tonight I'll try to find a way to get the actual logfile posted up and a link to the application to view it so people have more than just my images to look at.
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 28, 2008 10:43 AM
Edited By: shiggsy on 28 Apr 2008 11:44
Ok heres a link to a zip file containing 2 log files, hopefully they will be accesable. The injector problem happens around the 16 minute marks. On one of the logs the EGT wire for cyl3 came loose so its not valid. Some of the traces like IAP/Gears are raw voltage values and have not been converted to Pressure or gear values.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2721&d=1209407190
This is a link to the application that you can view them with. When it fires up it will want to connect to a com port, Select 'Don't Connect'.
To open the log, from the application menu go:
File->Open File/Log and browse to one of the unzipped files.
If you wish to hide or show trace lines to unclutter the view go:
Channels->Show/Hide Channel
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/downloads/LogWorks2-setup.exe
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted April 28, 2008 06:08 PM
Edited By: 2000redrocket on 28 Apr 2008 19:10
my questions are did this show up on the wego2 or did this show up after the kleen mod. or did this only show up reasently for no reason(you did not modd anything)
mine will go both lean or rich depending where you are in the rpms and how much throttle you give it. i take it with you saying 7% tps from idle being 0 i am guessing this is a small throttle transition issue. if you are logging map give me the voltage readings for the area it is lean with just rpms and i can fire up enginuity and look at the numbers. i think like ridge it could just be the density map numbers. like i said my bike is lean (real lean) in the 28 to 3500ish and at various spotts give it a tad throttle it goes way rich (2100area)
what year is your 12 if ridge got a map for it and you can give me manifold pressure voltage so we can see where on the map u are plus afr and rpm we can see if it is just going to do that. it is amazing what you see when you look for something. i would of never guessed mine was running 10.5 to 11.5 to 1 at 4000rpms.
if it is a small throttle transition issue what does it do at same lean spot when you really get in to it?
i'll be at maple grove this friday night weather permiting. looking for 9.6s if i get my stuff rite.
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shiggsy
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posted April 29, 2008 04:34 AM
quote:
my questions are did this show up on the wego2 or did this show up after the kleen mod. or did this only show up reasently for no reason(you did not modd anything).
It showed up after I replaced my Cam and Crank sensors. I'll have a scan back through my Wego logs and see if I can see anything but I don't recall it doing this prior to that.
The MAP values you refer to I have flagged as IAP which are on the images. If you look at image 2 when it's lean the top line (IAP/MAP) matched to the same coloured numerical column on the left is about 3v. Obviously you won't be able to tell precise values like that but the values are all in the log file :
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2721&d=1209407190
I'm not really sure how I can get the raw numbers to you, I'll have a look tonight see if there is a way I can export them out.
Cheers.
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 29, 2008 04:43 AM
quote:
If I were to show you just the throttle, iap, and injector during the lean time you would see more throttle produces more fuel.
RR, just re-read your post, I'd disagree with the above, if you look at the image below, bottom line is TPS and the above line, the injectors, are doing the opposite. As TPS starts to come up the injectors drop down. I can invoke an control this quite easily.
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted April 29, 2008 06:28 AM
Yes but whether they are up or down they follow the tps
I bet I could add a constant offset to all your data below a certain value and make it track, except for the actual transition areas.
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 29, 2008 08:24 AM
quote:
Yes but whether they are up or down they follow the tps
Agreed, its the transitionals that are the problem, easing the throttle down and surging forward is not the desired response.
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shiggsy
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted April 29, 2008 10:56 AM
2000redrocket,
I can Export the data out of LogWorks into a .dif file (Excel compatable) and then extract the data you want from that. If you PM me your email address I'll send it off to you.
Cheers
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted April 29, 2008 12:35 PM
i do not know if i am good enough to read it that way. i havent figured out how to get my wego log to exell yet. but
1 what year is your bike? ridge may have the map for it to look at numbers to actually see it.
2 it is durring small throttle inputs this happens i think but is it? and if so does it go to the 12s when you grab alot of juce?
2 we scaled mine to 1vdc is 10cmhg 4.2 vdc is 90cmhg. if you plug this in we can look on one of the ecu maps and plot rpms and manifold vacume and go to where it ends up and look at numbers. we need to know what year bike u have to see first..
mine does not do correct things durring lite throttle movements either. i am haveing fun adjusting it though.
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 29, 2008 12:49 PM
Edited By: shiggsy on 29 Apr 2008 13:50
Sorry r2 I misunderstood.
My bike is a 2001 A2 ( the faster blue type)
It is on small throttle movements that I can make this happen.
If I give it a lot of throttle it goes lean.
Only scaling I have for the AP is below
I'm pretty close to sea level so I get about 2.54v with the engine off
cmHg- Volt
40 ----------- 1.95
39 ----------- 1.99
38 ----------- 2.03
37 ----------- 2.07
36 ----------- 2.11
35 ----------- 2.14
34 ----------- 2.17
33 ----------- 2.21
32 ----------- 2.26
31 ----------- 2.30
30 ----------- 2.34
29 ----------- 2.38
28 ----------- 2.42
27 ----------- 2.46
26 ----------- 2.51
25 ----------- 2.55
24 ----------- 2.59
23 ----------- 2.63
Be interested to see if you can come up with anything.
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted April 30, 2008 01:47 AM
one thing i observed is you are real rich.then it goes to the mid to low 14s. i would worry about the real rich steady rideing. it seems the ecu is doing what it is told to do. everytime the iap gets tward 2.8v it leans out a bit. but it is real rich to start with. mine does the same thing in the 5000 range pull a bit of throttle it goes to 15 to1 pull a lot it goes back to 12 to 13.
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shiggsy
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Posts: 128
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posted April 30, 2008 05:08 AM
Im experimenting with moving my TPS base position around at the moment, see if that has any affect.
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted April 30, 2008 01:22 PM
you need to hook up with ridgeracer if u like the bike and am going to keep it then tune it ur self. i am having a good time. first thing was to get rid of the muzzy syndrome. it was way rich in the area of 1800 to 2800 when pulling a little bit of throttle the iap would go to -10 to -6 and i tweeked that area leaner. fixed. it could be better but for now i am very happy.
who needs a power commander???
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tshultz
Zone Head
Posts: 556
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posted April 30, 2008 01:32 PM
I like my power commander and I will see you at Maple grove wish for good weather.
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shiggsy
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted May 01, 2008 04:18 AM
I have a spare ECU so I could do the 'RR mod' and I have seen the instructions on the site but I need to pluck up the courage to do the notching, Im afraid I'd mess it up. I definitely couldn't do the soldering but I know someone who could.
I did a couple of WOT on the bike the other evening and it wouldn't go lean, peaked at about 13.5 and dropped back to low 12s. Just the small throttle openings are making it go lean.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted May 01, 2008 08:22 AM
You might want to look at the timing when working on what you call "the Muzzy syndrome".
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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