bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 01, 2008 07:56 AM
Brake Bleeding Issues
Hello Everyone,
First off, I have searched this site and others to accumulate data on how to properly bleed brakes, so please don't be too hard on me with my issues below.
History:
I removed all my calipers to have them powder coated. I've cleaned up all the calipers with alcohol, installed piston oil/dust seals after coating with fresh brake fluid, torque bolts and installed on bike.
Parts: New front Galfer wave rotors/Galfer pads; OEM rear rotor/EBC pads.
1st issue
I can't get any pressure from the calipers when pulling the front brake lever. It's totally loose beyond spongy feel. No tension or pistons compressing. I have all bolts (Banjo) and bleed screws tight. As well as the master cylinder cover. I have pumped the brake lever and attached duct tape to it overnight to see what happened, same thing no pressure or fluid in the calipers. One note, I did have the brake lines just hanging for a couple weeks, without being plugged or anything, until I received my calipers back. Don't know if a lot of air got into the system. I'll probably try to pick up some clear tubing so I can siphon the brake fluid through the bleed screws see what happens.
Next day
I still have no pressure at all in the lever. In other words, when I pump the lever, it hits the bar with no tension at all. And no fluid comes out the bleeder valve, but some air and slight bubbles come out. So there is no real strong pressure when pumping (could just be more air pushing through the caliper instead of fluid). Then I tried cracking the banjo bolt at the caliper and some fluid comes out of there. This leads me to think there is no fluid in the calipers. They are still compressed/seated back when I reinstalled them after cleaning. Also the fluid seals might be obstructed, preventing fluid from entering to the calipers.
I took the right front caliper apart again to see if indeed fluid was going to the other side of the caliper, and fluid was there, so pumping the lever isn't putting enough pressure to move more fluid into the caliper to force the pistons forward. Probably can't get behind them to do its thing. So I would need to probably move the pistons forward a bit, but keeping enough space for the rotor. I'm just speculating. Don't know for sure.
2nd issue
my rear calipers (OEM) with new pads (EBC) have created a real tight grip. I mean it's hard to spin wheel with the most extreme effort. I had to take out the piston dust covers (they go inside the pistons). Without taking the dust covers out I wouldn't have been able to attach one of the caliper bolts to the swing arm!
I was thinking the pistons weren't seated correctly in the caliper, but they are.
It's the pads. They are a little too thick. Also figured out I will have to add washers to the bolts to pull them out a bit. I dry fitted the caliper without the pads (with piston dust covers installed) and when I tightened the bolts all the way, it tilted the caliper into the rotor, so I added 2 washers per bolt and it worked without the pads. I was able to spin the rear wheel. Just visually looking at the space for the pads, looks a little too tight. So my question for the thick pads, will I need to have them shaved down a bit?
Sorry for the long post and thanks for any help
Blue,
  
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted April 01, 2008 09:27 AM
try to prime the master cylinder .
1. get a couple shop towel ready, under the cyclinder.
2. loosen the top bango bolt and slowly squeeze the lever a few times until the fluid starts flowing.
3. tighten that bango bolt while holding the lever then bleed as usual.
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 01, 2008 09:38 AM
quote:
try to prime the master cylinder .
1. get a couple shop towel ready, under the cyclinder.
2. loosen the top bango bolt and slowly squeeze the lever a few times until the fluid starts flowing.
3. tighten that bango bolt while holding the lever then bleed as usual.
Ok, I'll try this.
Thanks
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 01, 2008 12:09 PM
The Duct tape only works when you have "SOME" Pressure! When I have had everything apart I do it backward to avoid these kind of problems! I fill the Master Cylinder from the Caliper! . Get a high quality Small Oil Squirt can anc seriously clean it. Then pump a little Brake fluid through it to clean it again. Then (Make sure the Stem is no bigger than 3/16 to 1/4 inch in diameter) slip on a 6 inch piece of CLEAR Plastic tubing and fill it to the edge.
Open the brake bleeded no more than 1/2 to 1 turn out and push the Stem on the bleeder and fill the MC. and lock off the bleeder while STILL Pumping. Start with the Caliper the FARTHEST from the MC / Longest line!
Empty the MC and do the same with the other side! Cover the MC and draw in the lever slowly then pump it up!
NOW Tape it after pumping it up for a few hours to totally bleed the air out!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 01, 2008 12:44 PM
quote:
The Duct tape only works when you have "SOME" Pressure! When I have had everything apart I do it backward to avoid these kind of problems! I fill the Master Cylinder from the Caliper! . Get a high quality Small Oil Squirt can anc seriously clean it. Then pump a little Brake fluid through it to clean it again. Then (Make sure the Stem is no bigger than 3/16 to 1/4 inch in diameter) slip on a 6 inch piece of CLEAR Plastic tubing and fill it to the edge.
Open the brake bleeded no more than 1/2 to 1 turn out and push the Stem on the bleeder and fill the MC. and lock off the bleeder while STILL Pumping. Start with the Caliper the FARTHEST from the MC / Longest line!
Empty the MC and do the same with the other side! Cover the MC and draw in the lever slowly then pump it up!
NOW Tape it after pumping it up for a few hours to totally bleed the air out!
Ok, I have a question, do I need to replace all the o-rings and crush washers?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 01, 2008 12:52 PM
The crush washers are "USUALLY" Copper and at MOST you may want to heat them over the Gas Stove and throw them into a cold glass of water is they are leaking! "0" RIngs" Do you mean the square rubber seals inside the calipers? If you got them out without damage you should be OK!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 01, 2008 01:06 PM
yeah no leaks, but you never know about those that are so small the eye can't see them. will this cause problems with pressure buildup?
yeah I have 2 seals/o-rings per cylinder and I have 9 pistons per caliper (front). Yeah no problems taking them out.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 01, 2008 02:21 PM
WHAT Cause Pressure Build up? The reverse bleeding? NO make sure you keep the cap sitting on the MC so that the fluid doen not hop out! Check from time to time to not get over filled
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 02, 2008 07:01 AM
Ok, I'll try that. Picked up a good squirt can last night and clean it. Already have the tubing. Will start the process this weekend.
Is there any issues with using Dot 3 (AUTO) brake fluid over Dot 4 (CYCLE) fluid? Or does it not matter considering both are hydraulic fluids.
I mean I have no issues picking up more fluid for my cycle, was just wondering.
Thanks for all your input, thus far.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 02, 2008 09:44 AM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 2 Apr 2008 13:44
About the DIfference between Water and OIL! Dot 4 handles MORE Water before it looses it boiling point! The problem with water is three (3) Fold Gas, Liquid and Solid! Is can be all three! You do not need to use "Motorcycle" brake Fluid but you do want the BEST You can find and NO DOt 3 is good enough! I use at least Valvoline in the SIlver Brown container dot 4 fluid . FOr about $5.00 a large container will take care of everything and your car!
Brake fluid is Hydroscopic and DRAWS Water through your rubber brake lines and from the air! SO do this on a non Humid or Non raining day and keep the cap on everything as you are doing this to keep from ruining the fluid! Brake fluid should be changed at LEAST every other year! You should NOT be able to see the color of it! If it is dark then it is NO Good for you!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 02, 2008 10:39 AM
Cool, sounds good. Thanks
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 05, 2008 05:32 AM
Front brakes all good now. Filling the calipers through the bleed screws up into the MC worked perfectly. After doing one side I used the mini vac to suck the MC of the fluid by just putting one end of the tube in the MC and extracted the fluid. Then started back bleeding the other caliper. You could see the bubbles being expelled. After locking the bleed screw, covered the MC and pumped the lever a few times. At first I didn't think it was working until i stuck my finger in were the brake pads were. I started to feel the compression the pistons were putting on the pads. Closing the gap and then the pads had a bite on the rotors, and I could feel the lever stiffing, slightly. So I held in the lever and taped it until the next day. It was like 80%. Looked in the MC and the fluid was low. Filled it, taped the lever again and left it for the next day. 100% now!
Now I will tackle my rear brake alignment issue and then try to put about 200 miles on the new Galfer Front wave rotors and pads before taking it it in for a new valve adjustment/gasket.
I would like to thank Vincent and everyone for there time and input in helping me tackle bleeding my brakes!!
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 09, 2008 09:33 AM
Glad to see you FINALLY got it done! These things can WEAR YOU OUT and Frustrate you to death! There is just NO easy way to do this without the pain and suffering! But between the Fill from the bleed holes and the Pump up and tape, you can at least get CLOSE! m
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 09, 2008 10:26 AM
Edited By: bluemoss on 9 Apr 2008 11:27
that is true. I noticed when I'm riding at low speeds (70 mph - 80 mph) and brake, there is a good bit (and with squeezing the lever, it's half to the bar), but if I'm at higher speeds and try to stop hard, the brakes are soft and there is no strong bit (and lever is touching the bar).
I,ve tried pumping and taping off the lever for two days, but lever is still not that hard. I haven't checked this morning. I'll check when I get home today
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Monkeyhanger
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted April 24, 2008 07:16 AM
Hi Guys and Gals? been re building front calipers on my 01 ZX12R and discovered two things: 1 - remove calipers from fork mount and re bolt on outside of bracket using only top mount bolt. This allows the caliper to be rotated upward to get ther nipple at the absolute highest point ensuring faster air purging.NOTE :YOU MUST PUT A SPACER BETWEEN PADS ABOUT SAME THICKNESS AS ROTOR.
2 - MAKE SURE BRAKE LEVER HAS MAXIMUM RANGE OF MOTION AT THE ADJUSTABLE FULCRUM ( Ensures full range of pump action at the master cylinder without the lever getting to thee bar)
In conclusion I would note that I discovered that the Tokiko calipers are NOT DESIGNED FOR CONSUMER MAINTAINANCE. In all my previous experience I have never had to [position the calipers to get a full bleed first time? I fill the system from below with the pump oil can method which is usually fine right off but this job had me working on it for 6 evenings to get the brakes back??Still a lesson well learned eh? Kevin
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Getting old sucks.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 24, 2008 07:14 PM
quote:
that is true. I noticed when I'm riding at low speeds (70 mph - 80 mph) and brake, there is a good bit (and with squeezing the lever, it's half to the bar), but if I'm at higher speeds and try to stop hard, the brakes are soft and there is no strong bit (and lever is touching the bar).
I,ve tried pumping and taping off the lever for two days, but lever is still not that hard. I haven't checked this morning. I'll check when I get home today
This is a DIFFERENT Problem and nothing to do with Bleeding! This is your disc are warped and they are knocking the pads back and when you pull in the lever the first time you are just taking up the space created by the warped disc. The second pump squeezes them and the 3rd Pump stops the Bike!
Raise the front wheel and use a Dial indicator and you should see the run out of about .5 to 1 mm
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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bluemoss
Novice Class
Posts: 48
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posted April 25, 2008 08:12 AM
Reason I thought it had something to do with bleeding is the brake lever was still almost touching the bar before a good bit was produced. So, could just be a matter of some bubbles still being in the system and I need to tape off the lever again?
Opening a new thread for the rotors.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 25, 2008 12:02 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 25 Apr 2008 13:11
quote:
Reason I thought it had something to do with bleeding is the brake lever was still almost touching the bar before a good bit was produced. So, could just be a matter of some bubbles still being in the system and I need to tape off the lever again?
Opening a new thread for the rotors.
There is NOTHING we can do for you until you get / buy an dial indicator and check your Rotors. Under $20 and Harbor Freight and with a Magnetic Base
The KEY to what you are saying (IF what you are saying is true) is the faster you go the worse the brakes are! Sigging still they are fine 60 yo 80 OK Faster then lever comes to the bar! The faster and more times the warped part of the rotor hits the brake pads and drives them back into the caliper the MORE you have to pump the lever just like when you were talking about how you thought the brakes were not working until you felt them with your fingers moving.
Get Back to us when you have checked your disc
$12.99 for the Base and $13.99 for the Dial indicator so they are not on slae right now because I bought mine for less then $20 total. If you do not have one near you "Order them"!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted April 26, 2008 06:25 PM
something to add on the bleeding part, if you try everything and *nothing* works properly, youmay have an issue with the lever itself not allowing the master cylinder piston to not fully retract, which will keep it from properly drawing more fluid into the system from the reservoir.
I've had this happen not once, but twice on 2 different bikes (and makes of bike)
If you reach wits' end, and if you;re angry enough to pick the bike up and throw it out the window, walk away from it and when you come back remove the brake lever completely and use a 3/8" socket extension to pump the master cylinder piston in and out.
One of those things which will have you reaching for the high-explosives without remorse.
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tooo slow 4 u
   
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 27, 2008 04:36 AM
quote:
something to add on the bleeding part, if you try everything and *nothing* works properly, youmay have an issue with the lever itself not allowing the master cylinder piston to not fully retract, which will keep it from properly drawing more fluid into the system from the reservoir.
I've had this happen not once, but twice on 2 different bikes (and makes of bike)
If you reach wits' end, and if you;re angry enough to pick the bike up and throw it out the window, walk away from it and when you come back remove the brake lever completely and use a 3/8" socket extension to pump the master cylinder piston in and out.
One of those things which will have you reaching for the high-explosives without remorse.
GOOD ONE! Never had this happened to me (SO FAR) 
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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