megabyte
Pro
Posts: 1047
|
posted June 29, 2007 07:18 PM
quote:
Karl,
What did you do to your crank vac that changed your oil press? This puzzels me.
(unless you had a belt driven vacuum pump or sumpin')
I'm puzzled also. My CC vent has been working fine for over 5 years, and I never see the oil light ? How could sucking air out of the CC affect the oil pressure ?
____________
We First make our habits and then our habits make us.
  
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted June 29, 2007 09:06 PM
We are talking about the crankcase vent mod, that does away with the Kleen air system, and uses those ports hooked to the crankcase vent........, and you plug the airbox hole.......
Several guys said they gained 1 to 2 hp with it.........
Is there any way this could affect things? I would think the effect would be minimal except at top rpm........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted June 29, 2007 09:19 PM
quote:
Karl,
What did you do to your crank vac that changed your oil press? This puzzels me.
(unless you had a belt driven vacuum pump or sumpin')
Doug et al,
I had a FBG motor driven vac pump on it, and it was clear cause & effect.
At idle, turn on the pump and the oil light would flicker; turn off the pump and the flickering stopped.
At work i deal with "pump guys", and they talked about "head pressure", i.e. the air pressure present at the pick up. They said "bad ju-ju"
BUT, i don't personally know nuthin about pumps or head pressure, all i know is that pulling a vac on the cc caused my oil light to flicker, so i sold the pump. 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted June 30, 2007 04:39 AM
For a Point of reference.....
I use an actual oil guage inplace of the oil sending unit. I used -4 line (same inside dia. as main oil galley). It is sensitive enough to register pressure when I prime the system on a cold start. I do this by unplugging the injectors and turning over the engine w/ the starter. I will see 5-10 psi.
I have the CC evacuated by the exhaust reed valves. I have seen NO drop in oil pressure hot or cold at idle. Pressure remains the same when I disconnect at idle or at 1-4000 rpm (sitting still). I have also run the engine on a dyno with and w/o evac. hooked up - NO Change.
Now a "pump" I could see affecting something due to the extensive amount of vacuume created.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
|
posted June 30, 2007 09:57 AM
 Edited By: rgeorge on 30 Jun 2007 11:00
Karl, do you know how much vacuum the FBG pump was pulling?
It looks BIG on their website.
You were datalogging crankcase pressure weren't you? 
The oil pressure switch is a gauge (not absolute) pressure switch. It compares oil galley pressure to outside pressure. When the vacuum pump is running EVERYTHING inside the crankcase is at lower absolute pressure. The bearings are still getting the same oil pressure but the oil pressure switch "sees" less pressure. Thats why its easier to get the oil light to flicker.
I can give a more detailed breakdown if someone wants.
I can also attempt to describe what the "pump guys" were concerned about.
I'll just stick to the kleen method.
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted June 30, 2007 11:59 AM
thats good info.........
probably explains a lot of why i get a flicker here and there, I think I am going to install a guage.........., where would I tap in to run the guage?
Karl, if you need any help on that tow vehicle fix, I can talk you through it, hope you dont have big hands!!!!!!!!!!!
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted July 01, 2007 07:36 PM
quote:
thats good info.........
probably explains a lot of why i get a flicker here and there, I think I am going to install a guage.........., where would I tap in to run the guage?
Unthread your Pressure switch and thread in your oil guage line.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted July 01, 2007 08:53 PM
I was hoping it was that simple...........
Any suggestions on which one to get? What type of line to run, last thing I need is an oil down........
I have two weeks before I can get on the track, and I am going crazy, this thing is going to go its faster pass ever next time I take it out, and its killing me........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted July 02, 2007 08:04 AM
You can use the plastic line, BUT , I would protect it from damage by inserting it inside of
some valcuum tubing. There is also a copper line kit, but I have not tried it.
I'd probably protect it also.
There are spliters that will allow you to run a guage and keep the light.
|
nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted July 02, 2007 02:16 PM
That would be what I would really like........., thanks............
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted July 03, 2007 05:31 AM
I used -4 Braided Steel line. Earls makes all the fittings and adaptors in anodized aluminum.
A good local speed shop should have it all.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted July 03, 2007 05:42 AM
i use the plastic line which came with the gauge, but covered it w/a hard plastic tube as mentioned above.
BTW, I "T'd" the tap where the OEM sensor is and put a transducer on it so i can log oil pressure. For the gauge, I removed the plug on the r side of the oil galley.
BUT, after taking several of those plugs out, be careful. They are installed using that same green shit which Kwak uses to secure the clipons.
Mean stuff. I use heat to get that plug out...
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted July 03, 2007 06:12 AM
Yeah, that stuff is un real.......
Thanks for the heads up Karl........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted July 03, 2007 06:35 AM
Keep the light, you can see it come on during the launch or shut down, probably never notice that on a guage.
|
nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted July 03, 2007 07:49 AM
planning on it......., thanks
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted July 04, 2007 10:17 AM
entropy,
Well, Hellooo....
Come on Karl- you know what's going on in there.
rgeorge, I agree, kinda , but the oil presure system is not completely sealed. Tthe pump is pushing against a series of controlled leaks at the bearings and the flow through these "leaks" is affected by the pressure differential between the pump output pressure and the ambient pressure in the crankcase. Lower the pressure in the case with that big-ass vacuum pump like entropy did and you increase the flow through the bearings, decreasing the pressure within the system because the pump can't "keep up" at low revs or with air in it. Increase the pressure at higher flows and the delta is great enough not to cause the dreaded flicker.
Doug
|
GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted July 04, 2007 10:24 AM
Doug... When You guys at Muzzy came out with that Dry Sump system for the 12 why didn't you add a feed section to the pump and totally get rid of the factory pump from the system?
____________
There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted July 04, 2007 10:50 AM
It IS a three stage pump with two scavenge and one pressure segment. The stock pump is not used. It's a standard race style gear pump driven from the water pump drive pad. You need to run an electric water pump if you run a cooling system. Work's bitchin' .
|
GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted July 04, 2007 12:05 PM
For some reason Doug I was thinking the deal still used the stock pump to feed... MY BAD!!! Yes that's the way to go.. The final solution..
____________
There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted July 05, 2007 08:09 PM
Doug,
Can you explain why a stroker would be more prone to damage by a long swingarm than a stock crank?
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted July 05, 2007 09:09 PM
oil starvation from heavy G forces..........
I used to have a chart that showed the amount of G forces that were taken when a certain 60 ft time was attained.......
If I remember right, When I cranked out 1.32s, it was like 2 1/4 Gs.........
Long arm, good tire, good track, and lots of torque, and you have oil starvation........., the thing with the stroker is, it keeps pulling where my stocker, slowed to a 3.71 330 time........., and a 5.72 1/8 mile, with a stock header, (open), and no PC, slick and bars, and a lock up, and 16/56 gear
Karl, if I did a 1.32 short time with your motor, what 330 time would that be.?
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted July 06, 2007 01:36 AM
quote:
oil starvation from heavy G forces..........
I used to have a chart that showed the amount of G forces that were taken when a certain 60 ft time was attained.......
If I remember right, When I cranked out 1.32s, it was like 2 1/4 Gs.........
Long arm, good tire, good track, and lots of torque, and you have oil starvation........., the thing with the stroker is, it keeps pulling where my stocker, slowed to a 3.71 330 time........., and a 5.72 1/8 mile, with a stock header, (open), and no PC, slick and bars, and a lock up, and 16/56 gear
Karl, if I did a 1.32 short time with your motor, what 330 time would that be.?
heath,
i sorted my passes , then deleted ones which had excuses
60' 330' 1/8 1/8 mph 1/4 1/4 mph
1.496 3.811 5.719 128.58 8.790 159.10
1.499 3.818 5.738 127.93 8.825 158.29
1.529 3.848 5.753 128.91 8.842 157.41
1.502 3.824 5.756 127.27 8.859 157.48
1.502 3.842 5.766 127.78 8.875 155.92
1.508 3.854 5.782 127.62 8.886 156.92
1.547 3.869 5.784 128.47 8.879 157.23
So a 1.32 60 would get a 330 of about 3.64 and 1/4 of about 8.44
gotta remember that i have a combo wt of about 755#... TFA!!!!!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Wolf Racing
Expert Class
Posts: 138
|
posted July 06, 2007 01:55 AM
Hi all,
Just for clarity, when we had two cranks go from oil starvation, it was our own fault. First we cut the standard sump too low. then we just plain run the oil low one night testing the clutch. We had the clutch out 9 times in the test session and didn't top the oil up. That was several years ago.
We have the standard sump back on. Run the oil level at just over top of sight glass and haven't had a problem since. Low 1.4 60ft. Apologies if it didn't make sense the first time.
An interesting thing (to us anyway) is that a few months ago we saw the old gold shimmer in the oil after only a few passes. We then changed the oil and ran a test. More gold?
The only thing we could trace it back to was that we had started using a shinko tyre. Alex would lay the bike from side to side in the burnout to get more of the tyre hot (bigger burnout too! we love our burnouts!). We think this exposed the pickup when the bike was laid over to the right side. The outler bearing on the left side of the crank went.
We stopped the rolling and all's good again.
Wolfman.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted July 06, 2007 02:12 AM
Edited By: entropy on 6 Jul 2007 03:13
quote:
Alex would lay the bike from side to side in the burnout to get more of the tyre hot (bigger burnout too! we love our burnouts!). We think this exposed the pickup when the bike was laid over to the right side. The outler bearing on the left side of the crank went.
We stopped the rolling and all's good again.
Wolfman.
Wolfman,
I think you just solved a mystery for me (and MadMike).
MadMike just bought a non-stroker 12 in Houston which was used exclusively for 1/4mi. The bike had main bearing issues twice, but not rods.
WTF??? I had never heard of mains going out except on total meltdown/pump failure. I betcha he was rolling the bike big time during burnouts...
Thanks!
Karl
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted July 06, 2007 03:30 AM
Sorry I dont have time to read this whole thread, but just wanted to make a statement... maybe it was allready stated.
The rods on the zx12r are excelent strength wise but they do suffer from improper cap alignment issues. They use the rod bolts for cap alignment as do most rods. But I've seen rod cap shift of .0015" on many zx12 rods. This seems to show up moreso when someone follows the book and replaces the rod bolts. If you use plastigauge (not recomended) to measure the oil clearance at the top and bottom of the bearing halves you may infact see the clearance you expect to see. This also applies if you properly measure the crank and assembled rod with bearing insert torqued (the recomended way).
But what an expierienced builder will do is measure the assembled rod big end at several clock positions to verrify concentricity. This is where the zx12r rods have issues. When the cap shifts the rods get tight at the parting lines. I have seen this on many zx12r rods from stock engines to strokers and have had to resized them to get them "round" again.
I personally feal zx12r rods should be resized or at least checked for big end roundness every time they come out of the engine.
I believe that most rod bearing failures are caused from this cap alignment problem due to the high number of shifted caps on zx12r rods i have seen.
So the bottom line is, its all about who is putting the engine together and how well they "blueprint" the assembly. So Its my belief that most zx12r engine failures can be traced back to human error.
Theres more to assembling an engine than checking bearing oil clearances, ring end gap and piston skirt clearances.
With that said, uncovering the oil pickup is never good in any engine. Thats a whole other problem. If your drag racing you need to address that.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC