dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 22, 2007 08:24 AM
Best- Complete dry sump system, probably not a good option for you due to packaging
Next Best- a Master Lube, probably not good for the same reason
Do-able, a Coby Adams Pan
But for LSR none of this is needed at all and in my opinion a stock sump with the stock oil level on the high side is probably the safest thing you can do. This is because you do not accelerate hard enough to unport the pickup.
Regarding the cooler thing- Again, it does not accomplish what you want to do because the problem is oil in the top end not getting back to the sump for pickup coupled with oil sloshing away from the pickup. You could have 2 gallons of oil between the "in" and "out" of the filter and it wouldn't change the amount getting to the pickup.
This is the secret to a dry sump system. The pickup for the pressure pump is always at the bottom of a gallon or more of oil and it is impossible to unport it.
  
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted June 22, 2007 11:56 AM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 22 Jun 2007 12:59
Shane, Between DM, Buddy and Karl, You have all of the information you need to make a decision. DM's to me is the Best it can get if you were an expert and had all of the money and experience.
Karl and Buddy are somewhere between if you had enough money and experience . More like the stickers on the Car doors, DM is what the Factory says it will get and Buddy and Karl are what "YOU" will get and happen to you.
This problem of Oil return, I addressed it in 2 ways, I enlarged the return holes and got the big Oil pan. I have 6 quarts of oil and with all of that oil, it is going to take a While under heavy "G's" for me to uncover the pump pick up. #1, I cannot pull enough G's to start and If I did, the rate of Accel slows at you increase MPH. Strokers are very hard on the cases also which is why I have ARP Studs in the case .
The more you investigate the more you will find out what led me to build my engine the exact way I did. I added my own complications by (as Usual) doing some things no one has ever done before and paid for my education. The #1 lesson I learned is never get in a hurry to do anything and going for Broke will do just that to your bike and your pocket book! 
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted June 22, 2007 12:07 PM
quote:
Best- Complete dry sump system, probably not a good option for you due to packaging
Next Best- a Master Lube, probably not good for the same reason
Do-able, a Coby Adams Pan
Counterpoint:
On my bike, with my set up, and my (lack of) launching style, the Coby pan showed a dramatic drop in oil pressure during launch on my oil pressure log.
Stage/launch at 70psi+ and it dropped to (10??? from memory) with the Coby pan.
The billet pan with swivel pickup shows 70-95 psi, never drops.
Interestingly, the billet pan shows a dip in oil pressure coming off the throttle at the big end, whereas the Coby pan does not. hmmmmmm......
I have a Coby pan which I won't sell cause it makes a nice flat base to build my motor on the bench, but I run a Koenig with swivel pickup.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 22, 2007 12:26 PM
I don't know what the inside of either one of those pans looks like, but I'd heard good things about the Adams pan. Maybe I believed the BS like I always caution against! We saw the same pressure drop at shut off on some set ups without tthe correct baffleing to prohibit the oil from moving forward (on decel) as well as back...... I would infer that the swinging pickup in your billett pan doesn't swing forward.
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted June 22, 2007 12:28 PM
Quality info, Thnx Doug / Vince / entropy
Vince have you got any photos of how you routed your headers with the adams pan? or any specs to work to, on oil way enlargement for the head?
Did you use stronger steel, crank case bolts or bigger diameter? Specs?
Cheers
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted June 22, 2007 01:08 PM
quote:
Quality info, Thnx Doug / Vince / entropy
Vince have you got any photos of how you routed your headers with the adams pan? or any specs to work to, on oil way enlargement for the head?
Did you use stronger steel, crank case bolts or bigger diameter? Specs?
Cheers
No brain SUrgery!
I have a Brock by Hindle 4-2-1 Sidewinder
Second, I used a 3/8 inch Drill and enlarged the Cylinder, Case and Head and gaskets in front of the engine for 50% more Oil volume return. Part of the problem is, they are in front and on accel it would be best if in back.
ARP Studs are very serious and are the exact same size as Stock with 12 point nuts.
Jim Owens did the work with them and I have all of the part numbers to order them.
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 22, 2007 02:58 PM
But, the drains are at the low point........ 
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted June 23, 2007 03:15 AM
Jim Owens did the work with them and I have all of the part numbers to order them.
Whats the part numbers Vince?
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted June 23, 2007 04:34 AM
quote:
Jim Owens did the work with them and I have all of the part numbers to order them.
Whats the part numbers Vince?
I will look then up and send them to you!
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted June 23, 2007 04:41 AM
quote:
quote:
Jim Owens did the work with them and I have all of the part numbers to order them.
Whats the part numbers Vince?
I will look then up and send them to you!
Ok thnx
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted June 23, 2007 04:44 AM
Edited By: Seth ZX12r UK on 23 Jun 2007 05:46
quote:
Best- Complete dry sump system, probably not a good option for you due to packaging
Next Best- a Master Lube, probably not good for the same reason
Do-able, a Coby Adams Pan
Doug waddya mean "packaging" ? looks?
How would a Coby Adams pan be doable with a 4-2-1 conventional exhaust?
Where would a accumulator fit on to the engine? (in layman speak) 
Cheers
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 23, 2007 07:39 AM
Packaging means the fitting all the parts together on and around the machine in a tidy manner.
You'd have to mount the reservoir bottle on the side, vertically like a nitrous bottle. Not very elegant. There is then a line that runs to the cases into the main galley (where the oil pressure switch is). Check with MadMIke as I'm pretty sure he's used one.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted June 23, 2007 09:55 AM
seth,
neither the Coby pan nor the billet pan are doable with the conventional exhaust, gotta have a sidewinder.
I believe kawachan has an accumulator for sale... (never mounted???)
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
|
posted June 23, 2007 11:15 AM
I wish somebody would make an oil pan gasket like most suzukis. They're oversized (on the inside) which helps prevent oil slosh in all directions. Simple and has to help somewhat.
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted June 23, 2007 12:13 PM
quote:
seth,
neither the Coby pan nor the billet pan are doable with the conventional exhaust, gotta have a sidewinder.
I believe kawachan has an accumulator for sale... (never mounted???)
Agreed about Kawachan. About $325 to $350 shipped!
The Only way you could use a stock pipe on a modified Oil pan is to have him only make the Bottom 1/2 as wide on the pipe side and then you would lose a quart to 1.5 Quarts of Oil.
The ground clearance would be gone if under the Pan as made and not easy to route it along the right side without HEAVY Pipe Mods!
|
Seth ZX12r UK
Expert Class
Posts: 238
|
posted June 24, 2007 06:21 AM
As Doug has said in another thread, the accumulator seems like the best option for what I want to use the bike for without going to the expense of a dry sump.
With the added bonus of pre-engine start, oil pressure.
Its all good
Cheers
|
nox
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted June 25, 2007 08:27 PM
Karl, I have noticed, that with the Koenig Pan, after a burnout, , (hard on brakes), and when I lay on it on the top end........, my oil light flickers..............., Royal Purple oil, never any troubles........., but never see that red flicker while launching anymore.........
I wonder if it is an issue with the crankcase evac mod?
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 26, 2007 12:22 PM
How long do you go between looking at the bearings?
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted June 26, 2007 06:14 PM
Just had the motor apart about 12 passes ago, for tranny work, all was fine, only one exhaust valve was .001 out of spec, threw it all back together.......
This bike has 1500 miles of drag racing only....., 2500 on the odometer
Take the 1500 and divide half that, so it roughly has 750 miles of wide open throttle in it......
I cant complain.......
Any speculation Doug on the crankcase vent mod maybe making the light flicker on for a sec or two?
I know of guys who have lost oil pressure in a dirt track car, literally, the oil pump failed........, and they finished a heat........., with no damage, with royal purple......., i love this stuff........
It climbs the gears in the tranny like the little lucas oil thing in auto zone.......lol
I should probably get an oil pressure guage mounted on the bike, so I can look at it, and see whats going on............
For two years this bike lived between 1.32 and 1.38 short times, almost every other weekend, march to november. That was with the stock pan........
I just put the koenig pan on 12 passes ago, when I put a new RnD tranny in, after cracking 4 gears..........., The tranny bill, made the works shock, and koenig pan look cheap........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 27, 2007 03:37 PM
A lot has to do with the calibration on the switch - some are higher than others. It's not a precision sensor. I an imagine the vent mod has anything to do with it. There's just not enough presure to effect it and pressure of anykind won't effect "slosh".
It's not the mileage, it's the number of times that little light flickers.......
Doug
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted June 27, 2007 03:47 PM
So let me clarify, so I understand you correctly........
My light could actually be coming on at a different pressure than someone elses.........., and actually, my light could be flickering , where the next bike might not at the same given pressure?
If so, then I am putting a pressure guage on the sucker.........
Karl, what kind of pressure are you getting in a burnout, and all, or are you setting the data logger after that..........
Surely I am running near the same pressure as you, since we have the same pan?
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 27, 2007 08:55 PM
That's exactly what I was suggesting. It may be a difference of 2 pounds or so- who knows. Gauges don't react fast enough. Try a different or new switch ( they're cheap) just to see what happens.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted June 28, 2007 02:59 AM
Edited By: entropy on 28 Jun 2007 04:05
nox,
I turn on the logger well before burnout., so i will look at my logs to see specific psi during burnout.
On the oil light flickering w/crankcase vac.
Yep, yes indeed. I ditched my cc vac set up a long time ago because of it.
On the billet pan having an oil pressure dip on the big end; yes, but it doesn't get so low my light flickers at all. AND, it happens when i am completely out of the gas, so i don't worry about it (too much )
BTW, i have shimmed the oil relief valve to get about 95-100psi at 10,000+, so if you haven't shimmed yours, i will have higher max values.
There is considerable controversy on the +/-'s of shimming the relief valve, but DaveO suggested it would be right for my set up so i did it.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted June 28, 2007 05:08 AM
Yeah, mine happens way at the other end, off the gas for several seconds,.........
I might try another switch........, could have been damaged when I took the motor out?
I know there has always been the deal with guys having to burp thier bikes...........
I have never had to do that to mine, until this time, when the motor had been sitting for months, and I put the Koenig pan on......., but also had a Fram filter........, took it off, put on a KN, and all was good in the hood.
I am just curious about he burntout psi, cause at my home track, i have to lay on the brakes pretty hard, due to short burnout area, maybe not enough motion to swing the pickup forward?????
I do know this, if there were any issues with the new pan, my motor would be toast by now...........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted June 29, 2007 03:46 PM
Karl,
What did you do to your crank vac that changed your oil press? This puzzels me.
(unless you had a belt driven vacuum pump or sumpin')
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC