psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted August 19, 2006 07:50 AM
This is a "Nit Pic" issue. You are talking about the fine stages of Blueprinting.
The most common ZX12R rod failure issue is Cavitation.
I have gone through my 2000 1270cc twice w/o any Rod or oiling issues.
If you build up your 12, I would be more concerned about 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears on the output shaft as weak points.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
  
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted August 19, 2006 10:38 AM
Yea true, it is nit picking but justifies resizing in my book. Basically You can hammer the engine right out of the gate if there isnt tight spots to "wear in".
Did you ck that thread link i posted above? I havent had any oiling issues at all either.
Have you blown any outputshaft gears?
Shit I'm still running a stock clutch basket. But I dont launch it hard and havent drag raced it at the track yet. And I dont shift with the clutch much at all.
But I need to get that basket soon before my luck runs out. II guess if it blows it will give me a good excuse to take the engine out and raise the compression back up to 13.5 and change the cam timing for more top end.
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted August 22, 2006 06:37 AM
YES!
I had 3rd. Gear on the output shaft shatter during a track day.
I was running AMP Motorsports Park two to four times a month @ 4 sessions a day back in 03' . I don't blame the failure on the gear due to the abuse. However I did find a weakness!
Other than One corner, I ran 3rd. gear around the whole track. My 1270 makes over 100 ft. lbs. at 4,000 rpm and there was no real need to downshift it more often.
Well, needless to say.....3rd said F@#K this and shattered during decelleration on the east strait, locking up the trans and sending the input shaft out the side of the case. This inturn shatterd the oil pump gear and snapped off the shaft. A piece of the oil pump gear windowed the front of the lower case and the rest was history!
The Billet basket punched through the Case cover and additional damage was done to the crank and #4 rod big end. TRANS WAS OATMEAL!!
This is the reason Robonson Industries builds the billet gears for the 12. 2nd. 3rd. and 4th are offset and get side loaded. ANY additional undercutting will weaken an already weak gear Spoke/Window.
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted August 22, 2006 09:59 AM
quote:
Well, needless to say.....3rd said F@#K this and shattered during decelleration on the east strait, locking up the trans and sending the input shaft out the side of the case. This inturn shatterd the oil pump gear and snapped off the shaft. A piece of the oil pump gear windowed the front of the lower case and the rest was history!
The Billet basket punched through the Case cover and additional damage was done to the crank and #4 rod big end. TRANS WAS OATMEAL!!
Wow that sucks. Cases are expensive!
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted August 23, 2006 06:12 AM
I agree! So is a complete Transmission!
I was able to buy a complete 2000 12 for $2,500 and "Drove it home". It had been down a few times at low speed so it was a perfect donor bike. Clean title and all the spare parts I want except for the cases, trans. and crank/rods. Trans. went to Robinson for a once over and had the billet gears installed.
Needless to say, It has been a SOLID runner since! Over 190 h.p. and 111 ft. lbs. 100 of those come on by 3,800 rpm! 
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 23, 2006 08:42 PM
 Edited By: frEEk on 24 Aug 2006 23:54
If K had machined the rods other than "flat" I'd expect to see that on a new rod, which I never do.
Of course the rods get out of round, that's why the technique of resizing exists. But why bother. Unless you can do it yourself just to tidy them up, just buy a new set if they are that bad. That way you get new bolts in the deal.
Oh and by the way, Mr. smarty pants, it's CENTISTOKES, not CENTISTROKES
Doug
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted August 24, 2006 06:27 AM
LOL......
Good one!
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted August 24, 2006 01:46 PM
Edited By: flite leader on 24 Aug 2006 14:49
something you dont ever have to do........
that ive always done
use the same caps on the samerod in the same direction
1st of all i always read a n engine to see what
was happening b4 i tear it down
you will see things that you will compensate for
work around
& simply remedy
2nd of all the out of alignment can & is caused many times
by improper installation & torque
there are several accepted methods...............................pick 1
torque to a value
torque then plus(+) so many degrees
torque & then measure the stretch of the installed bolt
no less all of these measures & countless others have appeared
to cure all of the above
even studs
& nutless rod bolts
to BMW "breaking" the big end cap
so that ibt ONLY fits back on to that rod
only that rod
& just ONE(1) way
measuring & resizing is mandatory on anything but a
going to sunday school street motor
any addl HP or performance & i wouldnt think of doing
anything else
the Kawi rods are good to easily 450hp
with proper setup
i prefer PANKL rods.................................................Sweeeeeeeeeeeet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
& oooooooooooooooooooooo so much lighter
reducing inertia & g loads( at redline easily 6000g's + !!!!!!)
of course the 1st rule is Never cause a problem
resizing & proper set & installation is the only way to go
anything less & youve caused a problem
an editor in road racing amer mag
noted that a 1st their engines would not turn over by hand
after a couple of dozen rebuilds........
their proficiency was so good !!!!!!
what to do right
what to look for (reading the tear down)
& always what to avoid (not making freshman mistakes)
that after years of rebuilds......several a season
when their engines were right
they could turn them over by hand.............................smooth as butter
even using a torque wrench........they aint all the same
they dont even torque correctly sometimes
ihave ONE(1)......only ONE
under lock & key..................used only for that purpose
never laid on a workbench
never loaned
never used for anything else
ever !!!!!!
good luck
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted August 24, 2006 03:42 PM
Where do you get the PANKL rods?? Yosh had them at one time but not now.. I want a set for my 10R
|
blitzkrieg
Needs a job
Road kill = Free lunch.
Posts: 2044
|
posted August 24, 2006 07:30 PM
You can get them from Erion used from AMA Superbikes.
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted August 25, 2006 06:46 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 25 Aug 2006 07:48
quote:
something you dont ever have to do........
that ive always done
use the same caps on the samerod in the same direction
This is incorrect. You do need to put the rod caps back on the rod that they were on and also in the correct direction.
On the zx12r there is a painted circle so you can see which way they go.
The LS-1 and LS-6 chevy engines use cracked cap rods also sence 1997.
Because of this they are throwaway rods. But it does help reduce cap walk.
The new LS7 chevy engine has titanium rods with dowels around the cap screws for alignment. They screw right into the rod itself. A much better soultion than a cracked cap but much more expensive.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
flite leader
Zone Head
Posts: 651
|
posted August 25, 2006 10:40 AM
it could not be incorrect..................................ie i never touted that the way to do it
this thread was started because you indicated people were NOT resizing
which i realize is a possibilty
no less i think they would know & do better
those same people may also be making other obvious mistakes
all i was doing was pointing that out
no different than your original point
no less i qualified my POV(point of view)
when i assemble or reassemble an engine
it simply is what i do
I DONT BUILD FRANKENSTEIN ENGINES
NOT ......................................!!!
a....should ???????
b.......supposed to
c.............or ought to
all of which i NEVER say
besides i buried them all in a ditch on the way back from sumter sc
late one night
if you see them at all.................................or again
let me know
i should point out that i think reading an engine is at least
as important as proper assmbly
no less if you are reusing some parts
for instance valves
same valve ....... same hole
that way if anything happens as a result
of assembly..... running or dumb luck
you have some point of reference
for example the legendary #3..big end rod bearing failure
there are others
i can attest that most mechs pay little attention & have less knowledge
about the gudgeon/piston pin
causes at least as many problems
unfortunately after a failure
most readily assume the worse & hurredly appropriate
carrillo rods
carrillo with a bad setup will last longer than
std rods & a bad setup
yet will still fail
cursory examination of some rather prolific
engines from porsche (hirth roller) evolving to plain bearing crank
the legendary Z1 a & B subsequently the KZ's evolving
to plain bearing cranks
suzuki copying the KAWI crank & experiecing crank journsl walk for years
rare & NOT so evident with the KAWi crank
& finally certification for aircraft engines
concerns of spalling.... crank walk......bearing tramping
attempts to alleviate very much the same conditions
nnew & upon rebuild
if you look at all the different variations in hi perf rods
they simply represent attempts to solve known problems
cap movement being only 1 major problem
oh yeah jIM
the 1st legendary rods for chevys were the
"pink" ones
a result of possibly the machine....operator & setup
you also have the urban legend about the ford 351.........cleveland vs windsor
sadly no clear winner
initially there might have been an edge
yet relying on just the legend & the notion
many a clevland got their azzes Spanked
& on a rebuild.......with the knowledgeable a windsor usually gets the nod
when bench racing
throwing parts & $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
will NOT get you all the way there ...............
simply smack talkin & intimidation
NO substitute for a proper build & tune
____________
bend your mind.....
or break your ass...!!
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted August 25, 2006 11:16 AM
quote:
it could not be incorrect..................................ie i never touted that the way to do it
It looked like it to me.
I didnt want anyone thinking that you could mix rod caps and rods or spin caps 180 etc.
Maybe If you typed complete sentences you would get your point across better. People have to guess as to what your point is most of the time.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
|
posted August 26, 2006 01:19 PM
+1
____________
You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 26, 2006 06:25 PM
+2
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC