canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 03, 2006 05:02 PM
Ping: Entropy, Mad Mike, engine builders
Some of you may remember that I popped my engine on a dyno (while pushing some respectable numbers). I finally got all of the other shit taken care of and pulled the mill out. The motor still ran fine, was not knocking, but the oil pressure light flashed on at about 11,500 rpm and stayed on. I dug into the motor to see what happened after having done an oil pressure test (0 psi), and found that the oil pump drive shaft had broken, and there was (what I thought was, anyways) bearing material in the pan.
I just got the engine out and apart tonight and believe I have found the culprit......
but first let me explain what I found....
I pulled the clutch cover off and saw more filings on the bottom edge of the case....and this is not a likely place for bearing material to end up.....so I got out a small magnet and found out that the scraping are ALL ferrous....all of the pan contents will stick to a magnet as well. I kept on pulling the engine down and once I got the clutch hub off, I found the source of the material.....the back of the clutch hub...and more specifically the bumps for the torsional vibration springs were worn. I put the clutch down, and grabbed the oil pump drive shaft (gear driven by the clutch hub), part #13216-1183, ...it pulled right out, and I heard a light "tink" noise as I pulled the shaft out. I searched and found the external snap ring (part #480J1100) had failed and was bent open.
I suspect that this snap ring failed (possibly due to reuse on rebuild (I'm not the first owner, so I can't even speculate about the rebuilds)), allowed the shaft to thrust toward the clutch hub, and reduce the surface area of the engagement to the secondary oil pump drive shaft (part # 13107-1419), and caused the external lugs to snap off under heavy load.
I checked out the main and rod bearings, and they are ok, although I will be replacing them all as a matter of principle.
I do have a question, though.....if I remember correctly, Carrillo rods use the black bearings, is that correct? Or is it the Blue bearings?
IMHO.....replace that snap ring everytime you remove that oil pump driveshaft......
Entropy, I listed you specifically because we both had the same failure.....is it possible that you had similar findings inside the motor upon inspection?
  
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted May 03, 2006 06:18 PM
a very good friend of mine had the same failure... and that was where the banging came from...
I am sorry but I do not know what the carrillo's take...
MM
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
|
posted May 03, 2006 06:49 PM
It was the Butler in the kitchen with a knife from the sink... Good detective work Canada!!!!! Aint that the way it always is? A 50 cent part screws up the whole ball of WAX!!!!!!!! Sorry for your bad luck on that one, BUT you have probably just saved many people from the same fate  Thanks Man!!!!!!
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted May 03, 2006 06:52 PM
 Edited By: ninja12 on 3 May 2006 19:55
Your bearing needs are determined by rod and crank size.
carrillo are small(none)
and cranks are (none) or 'O' , most are none.
small rod (none) + small crank(none) =black
that means you PROBABLY need black.
|
canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 03, 2006 07:05 PM
quote:
It was the Butler in the kitchen with a knife from the sink... Good detective work Canada!!!!! Aint that the way it always is? A 50 cent part screws up the whole ball of WAX!!!!!!!! Sorry for your bad luck on that one, BUT you have probably just saved many people from the same fate Thanks Man!!!!!!
Gunner, I don't consider it bad luck at this point in time. I was concerned that the crank was damaged, and now I know the crank is fine......so things are looking good. I just need to order some parts......
I can honestly say that I am happy that my misfortune could have a positive result for others. It is funny how a tiny part can bring down the whole house of cards....but I have seen it before.....many times, so my background allows me to see the little things a little more clearly than less experienced people....
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 03, 2006 10:14 PM
the snap ring i had "fail" was the itty-bitty one holding the guts of the oil pressure relief valve in. Destroyed a billet crank.
Like ninja12 says, gotta measure to be sure, but with carillos and stroker crank mine takes blues.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
|
posted May 03, 2006 11:09 PM
Sorry I don't know the K engines, but in general, you want to make sure the cir-clip is in a certain direction.
This cir-clip direction will work on any bike of course, and this will be for any cir-clip, say for example the transmission gears being vulnerable to a simple (cir-clip) miscue.
You'll see the cir-clip having the typical stamping; one being a cut edge, the other side being smooth at the outer/inner edges. Take the cut edge and place that toward the "thrust side" of the oil pump shaft. Meaning, you want the cut edge 'digging into' the shaft. If the round edge was used as the thrust side, then the round edge has a tendency to pop out (over the groove in the shaft rather than dig into it) under thrust loads.
____________
E-tard
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 04, 2006 02:01 AM
good tip, Gene!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted May 04, 2006 03:48 AM
very cool info!!
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted May 04, 2006 07:35 AM
Karl, have you had your rods resized?
I have always heard the corrillos are small(none)
and that has held true with my limited experience.
The only way to need blue is with Big rods 'O'
and small crank (none).
I measure like you do mic the crank and rods with bearing installed.
http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/zx12crankspecs.html
good tip gene.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 05, 2006 01:24 AM
G.
nope, never had my rods resized, but i measure everything kinda carefully, and blues on the mains and rods is the way it seemed to come out.
tell me about resizing rods.
BTW: i'm sending that loaner Coby pan on yr way this afternoon.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted May 06, 2006 03:06 AM
I highly recomend checking the rods.
|
lizard
Pro
Modulator
Posts: 1483
|
posted May 06, 2006 05:09 AM
Hey Maxxer what's the eta on compeation?
|
canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 06, 2006 05:38 AM
quote:
Hey Maxxer what's the eta on compeation?
I won't see parts for at least a week, and then about a week (of evenings) to get it back together and running...
|
lizard
Pro
Modulator
Posts: 1483
|
posted May 06, 2006 05:44 AM
quote:
quote:
Hey Maxxer what's the eta on compeation?
I won't see parts for at least a week, and then about a week
Turn the lights on.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 06, 2006 10:19 AM
quote:
I highly recomend checking the rods.
Jim,
I do check them, but a lil oval didn't bother me (till now)
what's this "re-sizing" process???
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted May 06, 2006 01:27 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 6 May 2006 14:30
You'll have to send them out to get them magnafluxed and resized. Magnafluxing is basically you remove the bolts and magnatize the cap and then the rod seperately and wet them with mineral spirits with a very fine ferrous powder mixed in. Then you look at them with a black light and look for green cracks. If no cracks then you de-magnatize the cap and then the rod. Thats VERY important to demagnatize them after. Then you put them in a rod machine and resurface the cap and rod where they meet taking off a very little bit.
Then you bolt the rod back together with the new bolts and torque to 16 ft lbs and then 1and 7/8 of a flat. Just short of the 2 flats the book says. Then you hone the big end of the rod to size.
When you put the engine back together you will go the full 2 flats after the initial 16 ft lbs. of torque. Then check the bolt stretch. I recomend prick punching the rod bolts on each end and using a 1/16" drill to make a small dimple on each end. This way you can use a rod stretch guage and have repeatable accurate measurements.
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted May 06, 2006 01:31 PM
My buddy can resize them for you. Just mail the 4 rods with the new bolts to him.
|
canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 06, 2006 02:56 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Hey Maxxer what's the eta on compeation?
I won't see parts for at least a week, and then about a week
Turn the lights on.
that just silly... 
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 06, 2006 11:47 PM
quote:
My buddy can resize them for you. Just mail the 4 rods with the new bolts to him.
Jim,
thanks for the info and offer. Hopefully i won't need the service too soon
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted May 09, 2006 09:06 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 9 May 2006 10:09
I'd check them. I'll bet they are .001" out of alignment. All four of mine were out of alignment with the caps. And I doubt that all four of mine were an anomoly.
Have you had any crank or rod or bearing issues with any of your 12r engines yet ?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 11, 2006 02:16 AM
Jim,
i betcha mine are also in need of alignment as there was uneven wear on the bearings. the next time i tear it down, i'll get it done. thx again for the info.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted May 11, 2006 09:04 AM
Yea its just good to make sure. Helps ya sleep at night. 
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 12, 2006 04:05 AM
quote:
Yea its just good to make sure. Helps ya sleep at night.
i'm an ole fukker, and we don't sleep
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted May 12, 2006 06:25 AM
That's right we're too busy trying to put our retirement into a motorcycle.
Who needs sleep.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC