canadamaxxer
Pro
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posted November 22, 2004 09:09 PM
Yeah, but that still does not take away from the fact that H1's (in smaller numbers) and H2's (seemingly everywhere) get stupidly bad fuel economy. Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engines seem pretty innocent on their own and yet you put enough of them together and there is a problem. I have heard it said that one B+S motor emits as many pollutants as 10 properly tuned modern cars.
Don't get me wrong...I understand that there are nowhere near the number of H1's and H2's out there as compared to Briggs and Stratton engines, however ANY vehicle that gets 6-12 MPG is going to put out ridiculous quantities of emissions, and is an example of fucked up North American excess. Gas prices continue to rise and North Americans buy bigger cars and trucks...while europeans buy little diesel cars that get 80 MPG. We don't need an H2 to get get some milk from 7-11, but sure as shit that's what they get used for. We have turned into societies of jealousy and "keeping up with the Joneses". We don't need these huge vehicles, yet we want them so that we have the status...all the while bitching (or bragging) about how much the thing cost to fill up. It is so screwed up.
YCIS: you're right, there are other areas to be concerned with, and I think you actually helped make my point about the difficulties of getting big business to comply to anything regarding emissions and CFC's, but the fact still remains that these gas guzzling monsters are inhaling a substance that will run out someday. It's like the Condor being on the endangered species list...it just makes some fools want Condor egg omlettes even more. It's all about status, and in this case status means excess.....the problem is that these vehicles are puking massive quanitities of emissions into the air for NO GOOD REASON OTHER THAN FASHION.
If you want to learn more about this, do some reading about CAFE standards.....Corporate Average Fuel Economy......and the massive fines that companies pay so that they can sell an Escalade with a 6.0l to some dude who just wants the fashion, or a Triton V-10 to someone who will never tow a trailer.
  
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted November 22, 2004 09:13 PM
But concentrating on areas that have almost zero impact on the global environment is just silly...and done merely for publicity.
Removing every H1 and H2 from the planet would be quite a news story...and every bunny hugger on earth would love it and feel better about themselves for awahile.....and it wouldnt have a single measureable impact on this planet..or its future path at the moment.
Focus on something that would actually make a difference in the world. Some of these emissions laws are as stupid as gun control laws. Make lawas that make sense...not laws that make headlines.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 22, 2004 10:13 PM
That attitude is like saying that since an average household puts out only 2 bags of garbage per week, there's no point in recycling anything. Well, recycling is proven to work, and it starts one household at a time. The same is true with emissions....one car at a time. Besides, each of those vehicles that gets 6-12 MPG for no good reason (NOT pulling a trailer, etc) puts out the emissions of 5-10 normal vehicles. Get 10 of those off the road and it does begin to make a difference.
There are bigger emissions reductions to be had, but as we have already discussed, they are difficult, complicated and expensive to impliment. What is the solution? Do nothing? Automobiles do contribute sustantially to emissions. Vancouver BC's major source of air pollution is caused by automobiles...and the problem isn't minor there, but it is better than before clean air laws and yearly requirements for testing.
As far as gun control goes...let's leave that alone.....we Canadians most likely have a difference opinion.....
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your car is slow
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Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted November 22, 2004 10:28 PM
ah..so the attitude is "the people should sacrifice when the corporations are unwilling to do so".
nice little citizen.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted November 23, 2004 03:40 AM
but then we are right back where we started ;P
the bunny huggers and their stopping the big-news items, all while driving theirlittle 80mpg diesel cars. (which put out WORSE pullution than a gasoline engine.....the particulate exhausts are gobs worse for human and animal life than the CO2 and the other traces that gasoline engines put out)
the high-profile IS the waypeople will be activists though. because on the points that really matter, they won't get enough of that treasured publicity.
and that's what's important. the more they make the news, the more ignorant people send them money. so they go and stand inhuge crowds outside of navy base gates, chanting "no more nuclear power"
they go and stand outside power plants that are being newly built "no more dirty power" "no nukes in my back yard"
they go to the local Hummer dealer and SET FIRE to 20 of the things. yup, they got a lot of publicity over that. that's 20 H2s that will never ride on the streets again.
and these morons think they accomplished something.
all they did was, in one bold show of complete ignorance, produce MORE pollution than those vehicles would EVER have made. because face it, the H2s for most part are show vehicles (as has been beaten to death already) so many will stay at home, get polished, and make the occasional milk run to the local 7-11
i can honestly say that i have NEVER seen an H2 on the interstate traveling.
i see them all the time around here, but they take the things rock climbing on windrock mtn.
anyway the only things these activist groups REALLY care about is making hte big headlines. you don't make the big headlines by working with a company to help them reduce emissions. you DO make the big headlines by making a huge nuisance of yourself. costing the company much money to deal with the problem, money that *could* have gone to upgrades instead of extra security....
for all these multi-million a year tree-nazi groups to make me beleive they want to FIX the environmental concerns, and not just get more money andpolitical power,they need to DO something proactive.
maybe pick a coal plant, and donate some of their millions of dollars. match funds for the upgrade to a plant. because those upgrades are NOT cheap..
make a POSITIVE addition to the issue, and not a negative one. if greenpeace were to actually MAKE differences like that, i would support them 100%.
instead they break in to naval facilities and destroy submarine watertight hatches and pour sheep's blood on them... (and how many sheep had to die so they could make their political statement in 1994 on the USS Greeneville?)
f**k 'em feed 'em fishheads....
those fringe groups are NOT part of the solution, they are part of the problem. and their political nature makes them just another bump in the road of progress.
  
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Scooter
Zone Head
Posts: 899
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posted November 23, 2004 06:51 AM
 Edited By: Scooter on 23 Nov 2004 06:52
Well put, Slug.
OK, Now ya got me started....
About ~12 yrs ago Greenpeace came to town to protest the great "Dioxin contamination being released" by the papermill I work at, which incidentally, was the last new paper mill built in the US. Which also means it was one of if not the most state of the art facility in the country at the time. Ignorance again, go figure. So, while we're put on a full 24/7 alert with rumored threats of red dye/ink at the river intakes and employee harrassment at the front gate (BTW thanks Greenpeace, for all the overtime), these greenpeace folks come around the town going door to door tellin their tales of gloom and doom asking for donations and such. Heh heh, they made the mistake of coming to MY house. After standing on my porch listening to 2 minutes of TOTAL bullshit I looked at this couple and said "Y'know, I do WAY more to protect that river than you people ever thought of."...stunned silence..." in fact you don't even understand what your saying. There's more Dioxin in BEER than in that waste water." ... more stunned silence..."I operate that waste water facility, It's my job to keep that river clean."....red faces and more silence...." I think you should go now." The look on their faces was Priceless
I told you not to get me started. See what you made me go and do, hijacking my own F'n thread ;b 
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted November 24, 2004 02:14 PM
YCIS, though i understand what u say about industry polluting much more than consumers (specifically automobiles), saying quote:
ah..so the attitude is "the people should sacrifice when the corporations are unwilling to do so".
is a little silly. we talk about things like Hummers (and i see lots of H2s on the street in vancouver & whistler) and other cars because they're things we can directly control. we can put pressure on industry to clean up their acts, but we cannot ensure it happens, except for those few of us who are in the position to do so, but how many people are the head of a privately owned polluting corporation? we could pressure cleaner manufacturing practices by buying products from companies who already have superiour practices, but a) how do u find out who they are, and b) who is willing to pay the premium? how many folks buy organic when the price is double? i'm big on organics & environmental issues myself, but even i am not willing (or able) to pay that big a premium except for a few key items (like eggs).
as to focusing on hot-button issues.. well, what else are u gonna focus on? who is gonna listen if u talk about mundane, seemingly small things? people do NOT respond to the truth in the "every little bit helps" statement. well, except for maybe in the last couple US elections where that little bit (ur vote in this example) actaully COULD make a 100% difference. but that's just nto true for environmental issues.
as to activists... i jsut generally hate them. as slug and scooter illustrated, there are WAY too many stupid crackheads in those groups (on either side of any issue). people get so wrapped up in teh "cause" that the facts of the issue are overlooked, or adjusted/invented to suit the cause. there are no doubt well intentioned, reasonable people among such activist groups (like greenpeace), but they're prolyl all working in the backgrounds doing the critical ground work, so the idiots can yell & scream and get on the news and burn hummers (don't even get me started on that stupid stunt). i did have an argument with someone who supported greenpeace once and they actually had a good point tho: it takes those stupid, over zealous, activist types to get the message out. someone could say the exact same thing in a sensible, non-invasive fashion, and it would be ignored. pull a big stunt like a sit-in or blocking traffic or burning stuff, and now everyone pays attention. granted much of that attention will be detrimental to the cause, but sometimes it works, and that's better odds than being the sensible, ignored person. wanna make a raelly big difference in the world? become best friends with a insanely rich person who owns mucho stock in everything, and convince that person to implement changes.
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted November 24, 2004 02:35 PM
I just think if the world is running headlong into impending doom due to pollution...we need to concentrate on fixing areas that would do the most good. However due to the way this planet is run....it will never be cost efficient to do so....so im going to play with my big fun pollution generating toys just like they do.
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