Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted December 01, 2004 06:55 AM
Canada, I like the torque wrench example. Using that same example, the current issue is that the torque wrench is breaking "all kinds" of bolts not just one type. Engine failure is not brand specific or size specific. No one can truly say that any dyno shows that the zx12 or the busa or the turbo or the 600's have a specific design or building flaw, as ANY motor can be affected. The common denominator is the dyno.
I also believe with you concerning operation protocol issues, builder issues and other variables. But, even with proper operation failures still occur with good engines. (I don't really agree about the heat however as the motors are not running any hotter than in Daytona or Myrtle Beach traffic.....smile).
The problem in the motors is ALWAYS the bearings. However, these same engines do NOT have oiling issues. But, a force from somewhere is causing the clearances to decrease between the bearings and the crank journals to the point that they touch during operation on the dyno. The source of that force I believe is directly from how a dyno obtains its data.
[qutoe] I don't see how it's possible to put more load on an engine using a dyno than on the street.quote:
In reply to that question I will ask you a question.......
Which is easier?
1) To push your bike with your hands?
2) To turn the drum with your hands?
Slug, I don't think dynoing your bike is any smarter than when a hospital puts an older person on a tread mill for heart testing. These people havent excercised in decades and then suddenly you "STRESS TEST" the heart. This results in a heart attack for many and the heart is blamed not the testing method. I hope its worth the information gained. If it breaks will it just be the bikes time to die?
  
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted December 01, 2004 07:38 AM
it's all in the use of the dyno brake DONT USE IT UNDER POWER
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 01, 2004 07:50 AM
This thread is just about the biggest example of verbal diarrhea that I've ever seen. A ridiculous premise being flogged to death with not a shred of scientific evidence supported by anecdote after anecdote.
Give it up Canada, it's hopeless. Nothing will pry open this closed mind.
Come on, Ra I know you're smarter than this.
How's this - 99% of all aircraft engines that fail have undergone an annual inspection in the past year. Conclusion? Annual inspections cause engine failures. Yeah, I like that one.
Doug
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WARBIRD
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posted December 01, 2004 07:57 AM
"How's this - 99% of all aircraft engines that fail have undergone an annual inspection in the past year. Conclusion? Annual inspections cause engine failures. Yeah, I like that one.
Doug "
Bahahahahahaha!!!!!!!..........................................  
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted December 01, 2004 09:09 AM
quote:
The problem in the motors is ALWAYS the bearings. However, these same engines do NOT have oiling issues. But, a force from somewhere is causing the clearances to decrease between the bearings and the crank journals to the point that they touch during operation on the dyno. The source of that force I believe is directly from how a dyno obtains its data.
This is a perfect example of the DIARRHEA that DM is refering to. RA....are you smoking crack?!
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jonwright
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posted December 01, 2004 09:42 AM
quote:
How's this - 99% of all aircraft engines that fail have undergone an annual inspection in the past year. Conclusion? Annual inspections cause engine failures. Yeah, I like that one.
TKO!
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted December 01, 2004 09:55 AM
quote:
"How's this - 99% of all aircraft engines that fail have undergone an annual inspection in the past year. Conclusion? Annual inspections cause engine failures. Yeah, I like that one.
Doug "
Bahahahahahaha!!!!!!!..........................................
Now I dont care who you are that is funny!! LMAO...
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WARBIRD
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posted December 01, 2004 01:37 PM
Best laugh I've had in a while.........
And like jonwright said.....TKO!
That should just about end this discussion.............
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jonwright
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posted December 01, 2004 01:39 PM
Yeah - he's past just being on the ropes....his ass is DOWN!
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WARBIRD
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posted December 01, 2004 01:42 PM
Heh heh heh................
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MadMike
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posted December 01, 2004 02:20 PM
not even that it is just a funny saying!
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted December 01, 2004 02:21 PM
 Edited By: canadamaxxer on 1 Dec 2004 14:27
quote:
Canada, I like the torque wrench example. Using that same example, the current issue is that the torque wrench is breaking "all kinds" of bolts not just one type. Engine failure is not brand specific or size specific. No one can truly say that any dyno shows that the zx12 or the busa or the turbo or the 600's have a specific design or building flaw, as ANY motor can be affected. The common denominator is the dyno.
Ok, let's examine this further....if all kinds of bolts break off all around the world.... by certain people, while others never have a bolt break, it is still the torque wrench ....or is it the monkey that fails to read the dial or feel the click? The same is true with dynos.
Hell, I can scratch a paint job with a spoon if I push hard enough, but does that mean that spoons are known to scratch paint?
quote:
I also believe with you concerning operation protocol issues, builder issues and other variables. But, even with proper operation failures still occur with good engines. (I don't really agree about the heat however as the motors are not running any hotter than in Daytona or Myrtle Beach traffic.....smile).
I disagree entirely. When a dyno room can flash up over 10 degrees in the course of a run, the simple fact of the VOLUME of ambient air as a heat sink becomes obvious. On top of that, the fans that move the air within the room and forced towards the radiator of the bike are not the equivalent volume of air as compared the the volume of air when the bike is moving. If there was sufficient airflow, and exchange of air, the room temperature wouldn't rise. If air temperature did not change or was not variable there would be no point in having correction factors for temperature.
quote:
The problem in the motors is ALWAYS the bearings. However, these same engines do NOT have oiling issues. But, a force from somewhere is causing the clearances to decrease between the bearings and the crank journals to the point that they touch during operation on the dyno. The source of that force I believe is directly from how a dyno obtains its data.
Time to go back to school and take hydraulics 101 again. A column of oil is essentially non-compressible. Any leakage past the bearing clearance is more than overcome by the excess volume and pressure created by the oil pump and channeled though the oil passages in the crankshaft to each bearing journal. IF this was not the case, this would not be considered a pressurized system. The ONLY time bearings and journals ever come in contact with each other (in normal conditions) is on cold startup (after sitting for some time, which is why startup is so hard on engines. IF the bearings come in contact with the journals, REGARDLESS of load, it is a hydraulic issue(so it is an oiling problem). This is either caused by excessive clearance, too low (too thin to create pressure as a result of the increased bearing clearance)or high of viscosity (can't flow properly to provide lubrication) of oil, insufficient pressure or lack of volume. Honestly, how can anyone propose that the pressure of combustion vs load pushing back on the driveline (from the dyno load) will force the pressurized oil to extrude past the bearing shell clearance and allow contact, unless the bearing clearance is so high as to allow a drop in oil pressure? We are talking 10's or 100's of 1000's of psi of force. There has to be a pre-existing bearing condition or an operator induced failure (lack of warm up time).
quote:
quote:
I don't see how it's possible to put more load on an engine using a dyno than on the street.
In reply to that question I will ask you a question.......
Which is easier?
1) To push your bike with your hands?
2) To turn the drum with your hands?
This is comparing apples and oranges. If you were to say "which is easier: pushing your bike, or walking on the roller?" it would be more valid, but even then it is a question of physics (inertia): rider + bike = about 750 lbs. Dynojet rollers are (from what I've been able to find) approx 900 lbs. Sure it is harder to get the 900 lbs drum moving initially (and if the 150 lb difference is the range between life and death of the engine, we all had better avoid getting fat or taking passengers, for fear of popping the mill), but it also takes longer to slow the 900lb drum, than slowing the 750 lbs of bike and rider on the street (which would actually imply less load since it slows less rapidly). Obviously the eddie current or hyraulic brake changes that, but not excessively.
quote:
Slug, I don't think dynoing your bike is any smarter than when a hospital puts an older person on a tread mill for heart testing. These people havent excercised in decades and then suddenly you "STRESS TEST" the heart. This results in a heart attack for many and the heart is blamed not the testing method. I hope its worth the information gained. If it breaks will it just be the bikes time to die?
I would not be eager to put my girlfriend's 88 EX500 (with god know how many km's)on a dyno, but to put either of my 12's on the dyno is not a big deal to me. Your comparison implies that any used bike engine has the potential to be like a person with a bad heart. I agree completely. When my dad was sick, and they put him on the treadmill for the stress test, he did almost have a heart attack, but it was a damn good thing that it happened there. Also I would say that his heart was to blame (which turned out to be Angina, and was easily repaired, not the tread mill, or his shoes, etc. Actually, to split hairs, the true culprit was bacon. The process may have been harsh, but I would rather that than having him climb a set of stairs and having a heart attack, oblivious to his condition because the tread mill CREATES heart failures.
What I disagree with is the blanket statement that implies that any bike is like the heart patient...but I suppose there is some validity to it....when some dude keels over at his desk from a heart attack, at age 25, it shows that similarly, any of us could own the bike that is ready to fail on the dyno. Honestly, I would rather find out that I have a heart condition (or any health problem) as a result of testing, than burying my head in the sand to avoid ever knowing, until I go to walk up some stairs and die on the spot...unaware that there was ever a problem. I would also rather know that my engine had a flaw than ride along obliviously, until the day I pull out to pass someone, roll on the throttle and end up with a rod poking out of the block.
There are always the obvious solutions... never start your bike, and mandate pre-emptive suicide to prevent heart problems.
On another note: I see that Dynojet is now advertising their dynos for use during break in:
quote:
The MODEL 250i Load Control Dynamometer is perfect for engine break-in, durability testing and fuel injection mapping. It's like getting two Dyno's in one package as all the features of the Dynojet Inertia Dynamometer are maintained.
This should stir up the "gotta-break-the-engine-in-easy" crowd.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted December 01, 2004 03:05 PM
quote:
Slug, I don't think dynoing your bike is any smarter than when a hospital puts an older person on a tread mill for heart testing. These people havent excercised in decades and then suddenly you "STRESS TEST" the heart. This results in a heart attack for many and the heart is blamed not the testing method. I hope its worth the information gained. If it breaks will it just be the bikes time to die?
Actually, i need to verify the jetting. lean jetting is a PROVEN killer of engines because it CAUSES excessive chamber temperatures and allows for detonation. (which will DESTROY a "perfectly" good engine.)
overly rich jetting, will cause a cool burn, and excessive buildup in the chamber..
which is PROVEN to rob power, to enduce detonation, and in really extreme cases, contact between the piston and head....
very good IMHO reasons to test the machine
another point: emissions. If i am polluting excessively, i need to fix the problem. coupled with a compression check, i gain VALUABLE information needed to make a decision on whether to rebuild or not.
or whether there is some small thing i can fix to make it work properly again.
and, if the engine goes blooey on the dyno? SOMETHING was wrong with it, and i don't want to ride it with a time bomb waiting to go off...
as far as the other baseless claims go...
i take exception to your claim that the dyno brake applied during coastdown is the harmful part of the cycle.
is this somehow ANY different from an emergency stop on the road? with brakes applied to full braking?
if that is the case, then my engine should have exploded eons ago, because i brake heavily ALL the time with the clutch engaged...
as for the rest, we have already argued to death
100% engine output is 100% engine output, whether it is applied on the track, at the strip, or in the dyno chamber,
your comment about heating and daytona...umm,when was last time someone was making their engine produce 100% power on the main drag at daytona beach?
  
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted December 02, 2004 06:26 AM
Doug, since you "feel" I have a closed mind I would like to reflect using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena. (Muzzy stroker cranks kits had a high bearing failure rate or Muzzy multistage clutches don't perform properly)
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation. (Muzzy products are offered to the consumer with minimal regard to dependability and quality due to the focus on financial gain and the lack of consumer concern.)
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations. (Motorcycle shop owners and consumers exist that have had bad customer service experiences and warranty validation problems regarding faulty products because Muzzy blames the failures on the consumers.)
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments. (Comparison of the cranks and clutches sold by Muzzy vs product performance by other crank grinders and other clutch manufacturers as reported by the users and installers.)
A close mind refuses to accept the truth to improve. An open mind deals HONESTLY with all failures with ACCOUNTABILITY to improve. So will you now deny that the Scientific Method of evaluation? If so, then you have a constipated mind. Doug, I thought you were smarter..... Sadly, even after looking at the Pentagon pictures, people still say they dont see the wreckage but they know a "757 Jet" hit the building because the president said it did............
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted December 02, 2004 08:09 AM
Well, you are following the normal evolution of bad science.
1. Begin with an "observation" of a phenomenon for which you have already chosen a cause.
2. Resort to non existant data to support the observation.
3. Cite "tests" that are were not conducted.
4. Decide that your predetermined result is correct.
5. When challenged, resort to ad hominum attacks.
6. Use the faulty conclusions to support others that you wish to promote.
Look this wasn't meant to be "personal". It's just that your conclusion has no basis in facts of any kind, nor is it supported by anyone that uses dynomometers of any kind with any regularity, or professionally. At first the discussion was lively, but come on, give it up. Like I said, I think you're smarter than this premise indictaes. I also think that you're just stubbron enough not to listen to reason.
Doug
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted December 02, 2004 09:11 AM
Well Doug, I don't take offense to you defending yourself or Muzzy Inc. However, your reply was personal and in this thread all of mine included discussions about "possible" reasons for known observations.
Personally, I do understand the other perspectives. But I also know that there are *8* pieces to a pie, not just one. I am sure that you are not trying to say that dyno operators have not had failures. But, all around us in society and the world humans, people and business owners will defend their positions especially when money is involved. We see this with drug companies, police agencies, neighbors and even our family. But, to deny something flatly when PATTERNS exist is more closed than a discussion about it.
Your reply concerning what I have applied the Scientific Method too, is simply to not address anything or be accountable. To attempt to discredit me and imply that I am completely lying about my Scientific Method Application is wrong. Because, I "think" I can find some posts about experiences on this site and other sites to refresh your memory. Those post alone would be considered data. Truth is truth, we don't have to like it.
There are TOO MANY bike enthusiast that have lost THOUSANDS of dollars not to have this dyno discussion!!! If there is the remotest possibility of what I am saying is true (and there is) then in all fairness, as many as possible NEED TO KNOW!!! Then if they choose, then it is a educated choice vs a false sense of security.
Also, it is discussions such as this that can offtend lead to a new idea for a new product that is superior to the dyno........ Hmmmm, but remember I have a closed mind.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted December 02, 2004 10:43 AM
Ra,
I gave you an opening (trying to pin it down to specific dyno brands), but you ignored it, prefering to paint all dynos with a very wide brush. Anecdotal evidence does not support truth without fact. Start compiling real facts and maybe people will listen.
People claim to have seen Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, etc, but without proof it is just a myth, and no matter how hard they pound their chests, it does not turn opinion into fact. The same thing is true here.
It is unfortunate that you chose to attack Doug Meyer and Muzzy's in your rant. I think Doug was actually trying to pay you a back handed compliment ("you're smarter than that"), but instead it was twisted into an insult, to which you lashed out unneccesarily. Perhaps you ARE taking this personally....it must be hard to have this many people picking your arguements apart.
Here it is: PROVE us wrong. Don't tell us that 1000's of engines fail on dynos, prove it. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people have claimed to have seen Bigfoot, but there is no proof yet, and so it is just a myth until proven. The same is true here.
If you're not willing to attempt to prove it, then perhaps it's time for you to move onto another topic....I say this not as a threat but as a friendly suggestion: the more anyone rants on a subject without substantiation, the more their peers think they're crazy.
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zrxdean
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posted December 02, 2004 01:19 PM
Edited By: zrxdean on 2 Dec 2004 13:34
I remembered what my mother told me.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted December 02, 2004 02:08 PM
Thank you Canada, you are correct on all points except that I recieved a compliment from Doug during this thread.
I realize that I stand alone with regard to who is commenting within the post, and that is okay.
Here is something however regarding your mentioning "Hydralics". Knowing that compression is not possible with oil, and also knowing that bearing failures are an oil related issue. The PSI generated by the oil pump must at some point be less than the PSI generated by the rod working to overcome the rotational resistance at the crank produced by the dyno. ie: the drum resists change in motion exponentially as related to speed.
Regarding Substantiation, what more do you need? Blow motors substantiates that "something" is changing while the engine is being stress tested on a dyno. Surely, we are not disagreeing on that point.
My premise: During a stress test on a dyno, the clearance conditions change between the crank journals and bearings. This has always been my premise which Doug so clearly stated was/is ridiculous.
Slug, what happens when 100% engine output is OPPOSED by 101% resistance?
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dougmeyer
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posted December 02, 2004 03:48 PM
Ra
Of course the clearances change, but no way in a manner that is any more stressful than when the wheel/countershaft/crankshaft is spinning against a continuous ribbon of road rather than one shaped like a drum.
Regarding your Hydraulic "hypothesis",- not quite. The area of a bearing similar in size to a ZX-12 is about 7.8 square inches (1.5" dia, 5/8 in wide). At 60 psi there is about 470 pounds of pressure spread over the bearing area. This serves to "suspend" the rod on a non-compressible layer of oil. The really elegant function of the hydraulic plain bearing in a crankshaft is that when the crank rotates within the rod a "wedge" of oil is formed at the leading edge of the offset created by the rotation and the thrust. This wedge, which is constantly being replenished from behind, forms essentially a solid bearing surface made of oil. The only way this can fail is for the pressure and flow to drop below a point sufficient to keep the wedge in place.
Regarding your question to slug-the answer is-the engine stops.
If it takes 101 lb/ft of move a load and the engine is capable (after torque multiplication)is suppying 100 lb. ft. The engine stalls (assuming that it takes a load greater than that to slip the clutch.
You can prove this hypothesis by a very simple experiment. Just let the clutch out in 6th. I think you and I can both agree on the efficacy of that experiment.
Doug
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slug
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Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted December 02, 2004 04:30 PM
had you paid even a scant amount of attention to the other 2 threads you started on this same topic, i explained in nauseating detail what happens when you apply 101% resistance to an engine performing at 100%
like when going at WOT full speed on the bike, and you encounter a hill..
what happens? the bike slows down until the engine torque is sufficient to maintain speed. and guess what, your engine never fell below 100% output.
never once did the engine ever make more than 100% output. either (unless you hit the Nitrous button, but that is outside the realm of thie discussion)
the same happens on the dyno, you apply brakes, the engine slows until its torque output is capable of maintaining the speed. if you are on the downside of the torque peak, the engine will stall...
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted December 02, 2004 04:53 PM
Crap this still going on???
I started this thread as a joke.
Because I had just Dynoed MadMike bike and it blow up at the track the next day.
Go ahead RA make my day and tell me my dyno blew it up I dare you
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MadMike
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posted December 02, 2004 05:35 PM
JC, dude look what you started!!! man you ought to be ashamed...
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johnnycheese
Pro
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posted December 02, 2004 06:18 PM
quote:
I think the dyno you were on the operator sucked I would sue him for putting it on the dyno in the first place. he was a loser anyway his bike was sitting in the corner all broken down looking like crap
Like if this wasn't a total give away
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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dougmeyer
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posted December 02, 2004 07:48 PM
Re-join the fun Cheesman....
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