MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted October 18, 2004 08:05 PM
My engine did go on the Big end of the dragstrip! at about 140 or so. But I felt it go and let out of it, sat up. and coasted and putted back to the trailer.
RA, I am not sure but looked like an entire mix of copper aluminum and steel. but it will be a few weeks maybe a month before I tear down. I have a couple of Bike Show's to go to before I can do the tear down.
I will let everyone know what I find out.
Mad Mike
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted October 18, 2004 08:47 PM
Well Mike what do you think?????
I am LMAO
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 18, 2004 11:01 PM
quote:
I think the dyno you were on the operator sucked I would sue him for putting it on the dyno in the first place. he was a loser anyway his bike was sitting in the corner all broken down looking like crap
bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
spit my coffee onto the keyboard!!!
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted October 18, 2004 11:13 PM
JC, Im gonna whip his ass... yep that is what Im gonna do... 
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted October 19, 2004 04:18 AM
I think it was that sticker he gave you, what kinda bling bling thing was that???
Yeah it may have helped you win the pretty boy contest but damm to blow it up and only give you a sticjy bling bling. naw kick his ass
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted October 19, 2004 04:37 AM
LMAO...
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted October 19, 2004 05:00 AM
I've had two 12s give up the ghost, one on the dyno itself, the other at the track immediately following a dyno session.
I dont think it's the dyno, rather it's the operator using the dyno brake to load the engine during a pull or to shut it down.
I had hundreds of pulls on a non-brake dynojet with other bikes prior to this with no problems. Its the damn dynojet 250 brake that's doing it. Fuck a brake I'll let it spin down on its own.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted October 19, 2004 12:01 PM
Rac4it, that is another good perspective to consider. It is something and if we can think and analyze it through, maybe the conclusion will bring us closer to a truth and EVERYONE can benefit from the information.
Canada, if you step back a little and think less like I am crazy and more like a scientist, then we wont have a "tit 4 tat"......
Now, I am not changing my mind, but I have considered other perspectives from our previous threads. If I don't modify my position when valid new information is presented then I am no longer learning. In some regards "Create or Exploit" are very closely related. The issue (for me) is how the motor is A-ffected differently by a dyno. I am trying to understand the difference as I firmly believe that there is a mechanical difference which changes the way a load is applied to bearings. I don't know what it is exactly, but something is different.
I know of multiple Busa's (probably thousands) that have blown on the dyno or right after, so I don't believe that it is simply a zx12 flaw. If it was a design flaw, then it would express itself very consistently, Dyno or no Dyno. Secondly, a turbo would immediately reveal a design flaw with the increased HP.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted October 19, 2004 01:48 PM
Bergie, Just what I said! The Brake to tune it is just like the Water brake dyno that you loaded until the engine stabilized and then you took the readings just before it Blew!
I think it is not the slowing down but the load it puts on the engine while tuning it!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted October 19, 2004 04:51 PM
LMAO
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted October 19, 2004 05:51 PM
what is lmao?
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted October 19, 2004 06:28 PM
 Edited By: BA on 19 Oct 2004 19:29
i lmao every chance i get. sometimes i lmao in public, sometimes i lmao in private too. as the boyz say, sometimes you gotta 'get your lmao on'
i've noticed when you first lol and then follow up with lmao, AND THEN a lmmfao, well, then that is just tff. good times.....good times.
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bossman12r
Zone Head
Posts: 513
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posted October 20, 2004 04:04 AM
O that explains everything
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gen 4 zx10 is fast
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1bad12r
Zone Head
Posts: 567
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posted October 26, 2004 11:47 AM
quote:
CM - My turbo is custom built by Horsepower Unlimited out of Nashville, Tennessee. Mike Chestnut is Horsepower Unlimited and he is probably responcible for most high horsepower Kaw 750 turbos out there. I have close to 4000 miles of pretty hard running on my motor without problem and as mentioned above , a bunch of dyno pulls.
Turbo is a Garrett T3/T4 hybred unit and the bike is very tractable to streetride.
Yea, Mike built mine too. Blew with less than 1k mi.
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768 Ryderz
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ZCatDude
Novice Class
Posts: 58
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posted October 26, 2004 06:26 PM
Bummer dude, but I can't complain. Mike built my turbo, but Dave Cox & I built my motor. Bike has over 60 dyno pulls & no smoke, no ticking - nothing but a hell of a lot of fun so far. Putting NOS on in the next couple of weeks to increase the fun factor, should be interesting ; -{)
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 28, 2004 03:43 PM
I just stumbled across this website: http://www.dynamometer.fsnet.co.uk/index.htm
This guys doesn't seem to pull any punches, and from what I see here he know what he's talking about. His bottom line? Dyno's do NOT damage engines.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted November 28, 2004 05:37 PM
Motors "SHOULD" last as long on a dyno as they do on the street if Dyno's don't kill them......... But they "DONT" last on a dyno. My observations even if I stand alone.
I think everyone should Dyno their bikes weekly just to make sure it continues to run at optimum conditions. Matter of fact dyno your bikes before each ride so the fuel map is always correct. That way you will always have top performance for the FEW miles before the "flaws" in each motor appears and stops everyone from enjoying their "HARMLESS" dyno's.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 28, 2004 07:48 PM
Ra,
Your obvious hyperbole, although funny, is just a weak form of satire. I didn't post this for any other reason than to bring up some information I stumbled across, and yet that is your response. In a previous post you told me to think a little more like a scientist....so I did what scientists do....I did research. I understand that this is internet research and anyone can have their own website, but when you hear the same thing repeatedly, it probably is true, or is this a case where 1000's of people are wrong? If someone could conlusively prove that damage was caused by dynos, don't you think the manufacturers of these machines would line up to buy into the research so that they could say that their product was "new and improved"? Without the proof, it is opinion, and although it MAY be valid, has no scientific backing to lend any crediblity.
To split hairs on one of your earlier posts: There is a drastic difference between "create" and "exploit". Create, in this circumstance, is that the loading of a dyno puts an unusual load on the drivetrain and engine, and causes damage. Exploit means, in this case, that there is already a hidden flaw (pre-existing) and the dyno exploited the weak spot. Here is a real example: my frame on my black 12R cracked (I'm serious) after I ran it on a dyno (my response, when I found out was "Well, i guess it must be making som power,then"). Does that mean that dynos crack frames too?
What I didn't mention or even know about was that the frame had broken previously and had been welded poorly. Did the dyno create the crack or exploit it? Well, the answer is obvious....it exploited it, and I am glad it did. It cost me about $1500 for a new frame, but I'm really happy that it showed up in a safe environment, not at 190MPH. I believe failures happen in the same way in engines, transmissions, etc....we just can't see the impending failure unless we get out the boroscope, or Xray glasses.
Occam's Razor....in a given problem, the simplest solution is most likely the correct one
In this case the simplet solution has to be that there is some flaw in these engine that are exposed by the unusual factors introduced by the dyno.
Demonifying the dyno because a person doesn't understand the process is simply a witch hunt. Perhaps this energy would be better spent making sure engine builders are doing their jobs and if an engine does fail (no matter the cause) performing a forensic teardown to determine the nature of the failure. That way if there is a pattern, we can eventually find out what that pattern is.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted November 29, 2004 12:43 AM
quote:
...but I'm really happy that it showed up in a safe environment, not at 190MPH.....
Badda bing!!!! we have a winner!!!
Big difference between "the dyno broke my bike", and "my bike broke on the dyno".
I'm with canadamaxxer, dyno is an excellent place to have a failure (as opposed to at speed off in the boonies).
Besides, when it fails on the dyno, you don't have to trailer yr heap to the shop, you are already there!!!!! Think positively!!!
Canadamaxxer, where are you located????
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 29, 2004 07:26 AM
Entropy,
Edmonon, Alberta.....way the hell up north
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jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted November 29, 2004 07:57 AM
I had my 600 race bike on a dyno the other weekend - next race I was at it blew a coil. Ran like shit the second I put it on the track.
Funny, eh?
I don't think the Dyno broke it, but damn. What timing.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted November 29, 2004 11:09 AM
Canada, please understand that mass uniformity does not mean correct. I personally feel that the engine builders should give some type of warranty. But, my mass unity no one warrantees race anything. Not because it is right but because it is possible through mass conformity. We see lies and injustice everyday sustained by that type of industry or organized group mentality. AMA ie: Doctors, Government ie: Where's the plane?, Prostar ie: Obvious cheating but approved inspections.......etc etc
I just got another call from a friend with a Busa,,,,One trip to the dyno and next trip to the track decreased MPH, just pulled the pan and now there is metal.
I understand the purpose of the dyno and in concept is a good tool. But if the tool "AFFECTS" the objects then the tool needs to be redesign to remain neutral. Dyno's, I have observed, do both...create and exploit. Would someone please still answer my ORIGINAL question. Why the magazine staff was surprised their test bike didn't lose any power after testing on the dyno??? They should not even had a thought about engine conditions changing after dyno runs unless there is an unspoken truth about what happens to engines when placed in certain conditions.
I don't know if it is the acceleration or deceleration or both but dyno's AFFECT motors. I will repeat, ANYTHING can be put under sufficient testing forces to break or weaken the object being tested. Why is it so hard to accept that the "common denominator" between hundreds of differents break downs is current or real previous exposure to a dyno. THAT IS MY OBSERVATION. We differ in what we blame for creating the situations that we all observe.
Timing can only be a coinsidence once, after that a pattern exist.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted November 29, 2004 01:15 PM
Edited By: canadamaxxer on 29 Nov 2004 13:17
Here is an alternative scenerio to illustrate Occam's Razor: A properly calibrated torque wrench is use to tighten a fastener. The fastener breaks during torquing. Do we go on a witch hunt and blame the torque wrench, or do we look to the metalurgy of the fastener, the engineer who specified the size and length of the fastener, or even the specified torque?
I still believe the only difference between loading on a dyno and loading on the street is heat dissapation (see the below questions, which may change my mind on this)...but that comes back, once again, squarely on the shoulders of the dyno operator (or this installation and assembly of the dyno room), not the dyno itself. If the arguement was that there are a pile of incompetent dyno operators, I would get behind that one 100%, but the attempt is to point the finger at the tool and say that the method is flawed. I don't see how it's possible to put more load on an engine using a dyno than on the street.
Guys have said that using the brake on the dyno on decel is what kills the engine, but how can that be a higher load than a high RPM downshift and applying the rear brake? If the load is too high then the tire will slip. On a dyno the bike is strapped down front and rear, and this could be more than a 200 lb rider, but once again this is a user problem (other than a lack of traction knurling on the drum surface). I ran my bikes multiple times on a Factory Pro Eddie current dyno and because of the surface texture on the drum, we barely even had to tighten the bike down; not like some of the Dynojet dyno's I have seen.
Maybe that is the difference: tightening the wheel down so hard to prevent slippage on the drum, prevents slippage when it is really needed (like a shear pin on a boat prop). If this is the case, then the problem is brand specific.
Ra: of the blown up bikes you've been exposed to, what are the dyno brands used? If there is a pattern to be had, this may be the start of finding it. If the failures are happening on all brands of dynos, we are back at the beginning of all of this.
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1bad12r
Zone Head
Posts: 567
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posted November 29, 2004 03:39 PM
I will dyno again, but it will be with another dyno and operator.
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768 Ryderz
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted November 29, 2004 04:06 PM
welp i guess i better put my money where my mouth is
time to take the 53k yzf to alcoa good times for a right thrashing.
i want to see if my power numbers are down because it's twice the mileage of the last dyno/tuning runs
  
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