inxs
Parking Attendant
Posts: 11
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posted May 16, 2004 07:26 PM
Is the factory break-in for the motor or the rider? Can you imagine if there were no "break-in" procedures to follow,how many first time riders would crash in that first 1000 miles??? A motor should not be having any metal to metal contact-a thin film of oil prevents that.Piston rings need high cylinder pressures to seal tight especially with the new Nikasil bores. slug-I had Pat at mototune do my zx-11 motor in 1995.He velocity ported the head,fitted 1109cc pistons,re-cut the stock cams.After 100 street miles we dyno tuned it-157 rwhp with the stock airbox and carbs.(pump gas+stock timing)After 7000 miles and 70+ dyno runs, the piston tops and sides were as clean-if not cleaner than the pictures on his website!
  
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted May 16, 2004 08:56 PM
well then, i guess it's magic lubrication then
canada: the ring lands on mine never have huge buildups, but they are always discoloured a slight bit. i've never seen one all crusted with carbon before, just the dome and inside of combustion chamber (rich running engine)
i agree race gas may burn differently than road gas, (dark grey film vice brownish black i think.) but there will NEVER be perfect combustion of all fuel at all engine rpm ranges. we don't have the technology for that at all yet. the ONLY way i can see that piston being mirror clean is if it is run in a non-hydrocarbon fueled engine. a hydrogen powered vehicle WOULD exhibit clean chamber, because there would only be one byprodcut (water) and short of impurities in the mix (maybe dirty air?) there'd be nothing to plate out on the cylinders.
i honestly cannot see how that shiny mirror finish piston EVER saw the inside of a running engine. there aren't even heat-marks or ANYTHING to show ANY stress had EVER been applied to it. sorry. clean lands i can see, as i have seen (though never that extreme) but please, his claims of zero oil passing the oil control ring are total and utter BS.
TANSTAFL principle applies here. there aint no such thing as a free lunch
as far as inxs: who are you? just another 'satisfied' customer? sorry i think i would have to SEE the engine run, and SEE it taken apart in front of me before i would believe something that absurd (PS why engine being torn down at 7000 miles? hardly sounds like it lasted much at all)
BTW how can a piston be CLEANER than a mirror finish? good call saying 'or cleaner' you really don't sound like an advertiser for them!
crank bearings, rod bearings, and cam bearings all run with clearances, and have pressurized oil supply to them. this DOES prevent metal to metal contact except at startup, when there is insufficient oil pressure to maintain the oil film. the rest of the parts with no pressurized supply (splash-lubricated etc) do have contact, but are DESIGNED for it. (forks, gears, fork to shift drum are just a few off top of my head)
sorry, if he were to not be making 'miracle' claims i'd have no trouble with the site at all. but come ON people, his claims are outright snake oil.
a properly run-in engine will outperform one that is not done right. that's plain to see. but please don't try to blow "zreo oil/pressure blowby" up my ass. someone else may be buying, but i am not. i live in the REAL world where there IS NO ideal engine, there IS NO ideal frictionless anything, and NO ideal clean-burning 100% efficient magic fuel.
as far as the 'crosshatching is gone in 25miles" BS
that's 33000 miles and change. nikasil is a tough beast. local machine shop had NOTHING that would even touch it, was rebuilding another engine and wanted to freshen the crosshatch since it was pretty light, nothing. didn;t even mar the finish. great stuff.
break your engines in the way youw ant to, it's YOUR engine. just don't try to sell a miracle cure that ignores many years of 4-stroke engine development. if motoman's "perfect" break in secret was what it is, the manufacturers would be best served to dyno-run their engines on crank dyno to break in, and avoid all the liability and warranty work from 'imporperly broken in' engines. heck if kawi could totally break in their engines in 10 minutes of dyno time, or whatever his claims are this week, why wouldn't they save the hassle of dealing with warranty requests because oif busted engines from abuse at beginning of life?
   
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rac4it
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted May 17, 2004 04:20 AM
lol who keeps a bike that long?
buy it, beat on it, sell it, NEXT!
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whitesands26
Novice Class
Posts: 84
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posted May 17, 2004 01:32 PM
This is really an interesting subject....The manufacturers are vague in their description of breakin procedures and I think there should be more light shed on this subject.
Here's another reason I've always questioned owner manual break in....Ever looked at some of the recommended oil and filter changes? My RC51 recommends every 4,000 miles for the oil and every 8,000 for the filter.......The argument for engineers built it so they should know better about the break in doesn't hold when you see somewhat of a contradiction between an impossible 4,000 rpm limit for 1000 miles and and the lengthy oil change recommendations...
It would seem that if they recommend taking THAT easy that they would also recommend a much more frequent oil and filter change interval being that the oil is exposed to much higher rpms as well as the transmission compared with cars...
I was surprised when I read Yamaha's latest break in procedure after a couple of R1's had problems because it was very similar to the one I was fortunate enough to discover years ago...
Extreme hard running will wear out an engine faster over a period of time than taking it easy...This is a fact...
This is where the hard break in gets confusing because the label "hard break in) is a little misleading.
All it is is allowing the bike to operate at all rpm ranges when it is new instead of "surprising" it with a dose of revs after it reaches 1000 miles or so.....
I agree, the transmission does "wear in" over a period of time as do other parts....You can feel it get easier to shift as miles come on it.
I also believe in heat cycling....Yes, some parts are "heat treated" at much higher temps than they'll ever reach in the motor...However, these parts have NOT been heated while being in an assembled state......These parts expand and contract with one another when the bike is started and cooled...That's why it good to monitor temps and let it cool off...These parts will find their place with each other gradually if you heat cycle it....Imagine just running it hard without stopping while it's new and the parts are expanding and tolerances are getting really close...By heat cycling you minimize possible damage on new parts/bearings ect...
Allowing a bike to surge past a certain rpm limit will not hurt the bike....I mean, if you're cruising along in 1rst gear and you accelerate to get on the on ramp and you bring it up to 8,000rpm real quick, shift, rev to 6k, shift and let the revs drop to 4,500 in 3rd you'll be fine.....
I like to introduce all rpm ranges immediately to a new motor and let it cool....
Actually, I drive my bikes pretty easy and only seldom do I run them hard after break in....Hard break in is for seating the rings properly..nothing else...The other parts break in after many more miles..
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