pmkin10r
Expert Class
Posts: 191
|
posted May 13, 2004 08:53 AM
12R break-in
How did you approach break-in procedure on your ZX-12R?
  
|
Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
|
posted May 13, 2004 09:07 AM
quote:
How did you approach break-in procedure on your ZX-12R?
I was a good boy and followed the owner's manual recommendations for progressively higher RPM limits as mileage increased. I was careful to exercise the engine to those limits, and made sure that it was being loaded both on acceleration and deceleration.
Also, in the first 500 miles I was conscious of heat cycling. I would ride the bike for about 30 minutes - get it good and warm - then shut it down and not ride it again until the engine had cooled to ambient.
Anyhow, I have an engine that at 23,000 miles burns no oil and is as strong as it was when new.
____________
Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
|
ANESTHESIAC12
Novice Class
Posts: 85
|
posted May 13, 2004 10:17 AM
I fired mine up and ran it through a few heat cycles to seat the rings, strapped it down and went racing........About 5 miles on it.....When i had the motor apart at 3000miles the rod bearings and mains looked fantastic.............You could say i didnt follow the book...But..in my opinion, Rod and main bearings arent going to change their clearance by "running" them in....So basically the clearances the are sized to from the factory isnt going to change. "at least enough to see on plastiguage" The rings should be seated after heating and cooling a few times....
My $.02
|
Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
|
posted May 13, 2004 03:14 PM
mototuneusa.com
Several cars and bikes and NO problem at all.
|
canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 13, 2004 06:17 PM
Amen to the Mototune method!! Warm it up thoroughly and ride it like you stole it....I am not a believer in heat cycling, etc. I basically broke mine in on the dyno. I remember old school drag racers saying the exact thing in a different way..."How you break it in is how it will run for the rest of it's life.....break it in soft and it will run soft; break it in hard and it will make power like crazy".
There are places locally offering the service of "Dyno Break in"...and it seems to really work well. The point made on the mototune website is that the break in procedure is probably more for rider acclimitization than the bike's engine...and when you think about it, that makes sense. If a manufacturer puts the fear of god into the new buyer about break in procedures and "don't go over this RPM, or Load" etc, etc...the new rider will be forced to get used to the bike more gently. This means less accidents and bad press about these "killer motorcycles" on FOX because some squid wrapped himself around a pole on his new toy.
|
TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
|
posted May 13, 2004 07:27 PM
Broke my 2002 in at that dragstrip....lol went 141mph on the first pass!
____________
Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
|
pmkin10r
Expert Class
Posts: 191
|
posted May 13, 2004 08:36 PM
quote:
Broke my 2002 in at that dragstrip....lol went 141mph on the first pass!
You guys are nuckin futs.
|
Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
|
posted May 14, 2004 04:14 AM
My mothers Honda Civic 2000 has 200,000 miles and no problem at all. riden hard from the first day, all service by the book.
Im a industrial eng. and 2 years in electromecanic and evryone with 2 fingers of forehead knows that the engine uses the floating method of lubrication.
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted May 14, 2004 08:26 AM
Don't the bearings harden with a few heat cycles?
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted May 14, 2004 02:52 PM
My god I hope not.
|
whitesands26
Novice Class
Posts: 84
|
posted May 14, 2004 04:38 PM
I've always followed a "hard break in"...Did this on my motocross bikes...Would follow the "hard break in procedure" everytime we rebuilt the motors in the bikes and never had an engine related failure except for 1 clutch went out on one of my bikes after it had about a year on it..Practice 2 or 3 days a week and motos every weekend...
By comparison I've broken in the same bikes easy and they felt a little weak...Rebuild the motor, hard break in...Much difference...
I know a two stroke MX bike is alot different then a multi cylinder 4 stroke but the principle is the same and I've done this same break in procedure on an RC51 with NO problems...Just good performance and excellent reliability
And it's not just a no brained approach where "ya fire it up and ride it hard as ya want"......NO...NO....NO
There is a methodical approach that if followed correctly will give you good results
RULE#1....NEVER....EVER just start up a cold motor and rev it up...You see this kind of stuff when some squid at the local bike night thinks he's going to impress someone by revving the crap out of his bike everytime he starts it up....Also, at the MX tracks you've got people starting up cold MX bikes and immediately they start revving them like crazy to "clean it out"...Unfortunately they wonder why their bike siezes prematurely...And you may not have an engine problem right away....If you start it up and start revving it like crazy you can do damage that won't appear until months later...
ALWAYS......Start it and let it idle for a couple of minutes until it's warm...This goes for break in and everytime you ride..NO high rpm unless it is warm..
The goal for Break in is to SEAT the rings and avoid excessive heat build up....
You avoid excessive heat but keeping riding time to a minimum and keeping an eye on your temp gauge....
Do not EVER ride in the upper gears at a low rpm level...Especially during break in....This is why I strongly disagree with most manual breakin procedures that recommend not to exceed 4,000 rpm...So, in order to keep up with traffic you have guys running in 6th gear at 4,000 rpm lugging their brand new motors
Never...Ever maintain a high rpm for an extended period on a new motor....High rpm needs to be brief...Roll on the throttle and as soon as the target rpm is reached let the rpms fall quickly..
1. Start the bike and let it idle...DO NOT BLIP THE THROTTLE! just let it idle and warm up a few minutes...I usually let it get to about 140 and then I shut it off and let it COOL OFF COMEPLETELY. Check your coolent, oil, and look over the entire engine and check for leaks...
2. 10 to 15 minute ride...Start it up and let it warm up...Usually before I start riding I just wait until I see some numbers on the temp gauge...On my RC51 it starts reading at about 97 degrees..Take off riding...Stay in the lower gears and once the temp gauge is reading at least 150 then you can start opening it up.....1rst time out do a few runs in 1rst gear up to 70 or 80% of redline...DO NOT MAINTAIN that rpm.....Just Briefly bring the revs up and as soon as you touch a certain rpm level CLOSE the throttle and let the engine slow itself down.....In between your brief high rpm runs just ride like normal in the first 3 gears until you find another spot where you can get the rpms up again...Do this a few times then head back in and LET IT COOL OFF comepletely....
3. 10 to 15 minute ride...Repeat the process above but this time throw in 3 or 4 brief high rpm runs in 2nd or 3rd gear...In between high rpm runs you can cruise around in the first 3 gears allowing the rpms to fluctuate(just don't cruise around at a steady rpm ) until your ready to do another quick high rpm run....
Repeat this process until you've got 20 to 40 miles on it....Your rings should be seated...After that change the oil(at least by the time you've got 100 miles on it) and get all those little metallic flakes out as soon as possible and refill it with regular petroleum oil...
After this just ride like normal...Do some brief high rpm blasts every once in a while if you want....Do not lug the motor....Keep an eye on your temp guages....
Do NOT do any sustained High rpm, high speed runs in the top gears (4th through 6th) until you've got at least 1000 miles on it...
The goal is to seat the rings when you first get it because the rings will seat very quickly...Properly seated rings will ensure tht you are getting the correct compression and a good ring seal.....This way, you'll habe a strong motor and avoid reliabilty problems caused by exhaust gases blowing by and contaminating your oil and you'll avoid having a motor that burns oil...
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted May 14, 2004 09:13 PM
Break it in by the OEM recomendations, and the odds are very good you will have a high horsepower, long lasting engine. Period.
|
swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
|
posted May 14, 2004 09:19 PM
I'm actually nondenominational myself, but I have many friends who attend church regularly. 
|
ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
|
posted May 15, 2004 07:13 AM
Ok, so the only thing really has to break-in, are the ring on a properly clearenced engine. right?
|
zx12girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted May 15, 2004 07:39 AM
 Edited By: zx12girl on 15 May 2004 08:39
The way too long Kawasaki break-in was due to some guys blowing an engine up making high speed runs when the bike first came out.
I was really gentle for the first 50 miles....then bordem set in!!:P Over 12,000 miles in the first 1 1/2 years with the stock engine with NO issues.....then bordem set in again  ....
____________
Life is an adventure. Are you driving?
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted May 15, 2004 10:15 AM
just realize that half the stuff on motoman's website about his 'break in secrets' is utter and complete bulls**t
the pictures tell all, anyone who believes that a shiny piston came out of a running engine needs their heads examined. that clean shiny mirror-finished piston is closest to a running engine part when it posed for that picture.
don't know about any of the rest of you, but regardless of hte good information on that page, the bad information is 100x more dangerous BECAUSE it sits next to good info
the ring seating CAN take time, but he is totally off when he says the corsshatching is gone in 25 miles. he has no clue. i had my 600 apart a few yeras back, it had 37000 miles, and STILL had the crosshatching on it. and it still seated the rings (no oil burning still, with 47000 miles, which include several trackdays and overall hard-riding (trying to keep up with greenglenn on his 12) like was said above, the rings won't take an inordinate amount of time to seat, it took 2-3 decent rides before mine stopped burning oil after rebuild.
the clean piston is a pile of crap.
his claims of zero oil passing oil control ring is retarded. if oil did not go past the oil ocntrol ring, the upper rings would seize due to no lubrication. we don't run lead in our gasoline anymore, nor do we premix oil into our gasoline for top-end lubrication.
for internal combustionengine to work it MUST be lubricated, and this means there MUST be oil passing the rings to some small extent.
the deposits on sides of pistons come from oil and fuel that doesn't completely burn off and exit via exhaust. fuel will leave deposits, and a really crusty piston does not mean it isburning oil. excessively rich mixture will coat a combustion chamber very nicely with carbon.
the guy is a BS artist, so don't go betting the farm on anything he has to say.
though his site now contains a LOT more correct info than it did 5 years ago, (which is about as long as i can remember those same sorry pictures of the new piston and the used one)
a controlled break in is ideal, but street riders without access to a dyno and ability to partially load an engine in a controlled manner will do well to follow the recommendations given in owners manual.
and note in many cases that the procedures don't outlaw raising engine speed over the RPM/mileage limits..
mine read 'avoid prolonged operation above xxxx rpm' vice 'thou shalt not exceeed xxxx rpm'
it also read something to affect of 'do not use full throttle until break in complete, or whenengine is cold'
to me that's a very open-to-interpretation procedure, giving the engine time to seat everything in without hampering rideability
whitesands seems to have the same breakin procedure that yamaha set up, go and excercise engine but don't kill it. make it work, but let it cool. make it rev, but let the oil flush away anything bad. then dump the oil.
what does the zx12 procedure say?
ninja the transmission needs to break in as well, basically everything that wears or touches something else needs to seat. gears willhave minor imperfections that need to be sloughed off, this is why an oil change after 50-100 miles is recommended, just to get rid of any leftover debris from build, and the initial running wear-items. eventhe clutch plates are not perfect from factory, they will have slight high/low points. i think i read somewhere, or was talking to someone, about a guy that would shuffle clutch plates from new box until he got a stack he liked, and that right there tells you there are slight differences between plates. (not to mention that people making htings there are tolerances and inconsistancies)
there is more to engine break in than just rings seating.
but i do agree, how you break it in will dictate how it runs. if you do crappy break in, it will run like crap. maybe not today, or tomorow, or next week. but down the road some..... the piper willget paid at some point. pay now or pay later ;P
as for turbo's break in: for a drag bike, or a bike that will see frequent engine rebuilds, longevity is not an issue like it is for standard street rides.
 
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted May 15, 2004 04:07 PM
well said.
|
canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 15, 2004 09:34 PM
Edited By: canadamaxxer on 15 May 2004 22:38
In my opinion (based on being a licenced flat rate GM automotive mechanic for 12 years) there are very few "facts" that can be taken for granted. Service procedures (how to take component "A" apart and put it back together, or how to diagnose this or that problem) seem to be often written by someone who has never done the job at hand or if he/she did do the job, it was once done once. To me this is just someone's opinion expressed and then printed as fact. If this is a "fact", then why is it that I (or other techs) can do the job in a totally different way and still have the job completed successfully? In most cases, looking in the provided service information is a recipe for doing the job either in the most inefficient way possible, or just plain wrong. This blows away the concept of "if it's printed, it's a fact". Is the engineer who did this job once, and then had his opinion taken as fact, more credible than me or the other techs who do the same job in a totally different way?
The only "fact" that service information provides that is close to a fact is torque specs....and when those specs are updated two years later....is that now the new fact? What about the old "fact"? What about errors and omissions? I get to work on stuff on a daily basis, that have NO diagnostics available. Does that mean that it isn't possible to fix it? No, it means lateral thinking (outside the Box....sound familiar??).
What does this have to do with breaking in an engine? I have built literally hundreds of engines (I am not kidding...there was a 14 month stretch where I was removing, overhauling and reinstalling at least 3 engines per work week), and no they weren't high horsepower racing engines...they were the common grocery getter engines that REQUIRE reliability. Here are some interesting "facts" that GM requires us to follow for certain engines in order to get paid: 1) when removing and replacing pistons on the 3.1l and 3.4l engines, we are not allowed to replace the piston rings or hone the engine block. The USED piston rings are to be reinstalled into the block WITHOUT any honing or surface prep. 2) On those same engines, GM has and will charge back (to the dealership) the entire cost of the job for replacement of either the piston rings OR any of the connecting rod bearings (that means the dealership has to eat the $2000+ the job costs to do, as compared to it coming into the shop as income...very bad when that happens).
What is the point? The things that GM forces us to do goes against all of my training, and against all of the books and manuals I have ever read regarding engine building. This is a conflicting set of "facts". Who is right?
Finally.....what does this have to do with the ZX12R break in procedure? Kawasaki (and the other manufacturers, of course) have a corporate opinion that they write down....and it becomes fact. Engine builders voice an opinion (based on what I don't know)....and it becomes fact. The mototune man voices an opinion......and everyone in a "knee jerk" reaction calls him a heratic. Is this because his ideas are so far out there? Is he really wrong or is this a "no, the world is really actually flat" old school attitude?
Here is one more interesting situation: I had an older tech, who was trying to take me under his wing, explain to me about the idea of "seasoning" a set of rear differential gears for about 500-1000 miles before letting them see full power. These gears are no different than the gears in any transmission. They are still machined, ground, and hard surfaced like any straight cut, spiral bevel, or helical gear out there. These gears are just another type of gear (called a Hypoid gear in this case). I later went to a GM training course on rear differentials and I posed that question to the instructor. After he stopped laughing, he suggested that was a method to allow 500 to 1000 miles for the customer to get used to any abnormal noises....basically a way for the tech to put distance between himself and the job. My question is: who is right? One of those statements HAS to be a "fact". Which one is it? My bet is that the GM instructor is correct.
I remember being taught about break in procedures in trade school many years ago, have seen those procedures done on many, many engines (bikes, boats, sleds, cars, trucks, etc). These are not new "facts". Breaking in an engine hard (or any other component for that matter) has never been shown, to me, to shorten the life span of the component.
....just my opinion, no "facts" stated here....
|
jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
|
posted May 15, 2004 09:45 PM
So how do the factory race teams break in their engines?
I suspect they don't.
|
swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
|
posted May 16, 2004 04:47 AM
I've seen it both ways. Some teams break bikes in on the dyno, some just run them to verify that everything's bolted together. And some just build extra 'bullets' and have them ready. Depends on budget, one would suppose.
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted May 16, 2004 06:47 AM
canada: but anyone with your experience should be able to look at the claims made by motoman based on the 'photographic evidence' and see that his words are useless
have you ever taken an engine apart that was running and had the piston come out looking like it came out of the box?
on the bike engine i reused piston rings if they were in wear spec, and they did take a few rides to reseat since you'll never get them back in the same way they came out.
but motoman's site has so much BS on it that anyone with any mechanical experience with internal combustion engines should shudder to think that he gets away with saying junk like that because of ignorance.
yes there are as many break in 'secrets' as there are builders, but that is the first site i have ever seen where the builder is trying so hard to say HIS is the only right way that he uses lies and BS photos to "prove" he's the only right way. that's why i refuse to support any of his site. go to another one, anyone that is HONEST about it.
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted May 16, 2004 10:18 AM
Edited By: k bryant on 16 May 2004 11:18
swft - you are correct. You been peeking in the race shop again? You're not welcome until you're officially invited. So stay out!
|
canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted May 16, 2004 11:45 AM
Edited By: canadamaxxer on 16 May 2004 20:43
Slug: The pictures of the piston with the dome that is quite clean does look at little odd, but my experience is with street fuels, not racing gas. It is possible that a clean dome like that is normal. The part that I find interesting in those pictures is not the domes, but the ring lands (the areas between the grooves the rings sit in). I have seen so many engines with huge amounts of carbon buildup in those areas (including basically siezed oil control rings), and it got to the point that I accepted that as normal....then every once in a while I ran across an engine or two that was clean in the ring land area. That was the engine that did not have the rings end gaps lined up...but there had to be more. I discussed this fact with a customer or two and had some red faced customers admitting that they ran the bag off the car....right from day one. They thought they were abusing the car (but who cares, it's warranty, right?) and didn't quite want to admit it..until I told them that their engines looked actually better inside than normal.
I have 4 pistons that I took out of my 12 that have the same clean ring land area as the mototune pictures...I can post pictures if you'd like. I was not the original owner of the bike, so I cannot testify to the break in procedure, but when I open that engine up and saw the difference between what I thought was "normal" and what actually is normal, I believed this engine was broken in hard.
|
tccycles84
Expert Class
Posts: 124
|
posted May 16, 2004 12:27 PM
break it in like you will ride it the rest of its days.
i build engines and this is the best way to run a motor and the only way to seat the rings os LET IT RIP! WFO.
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted May 16, 2004 01:03 PM
quote:
How did you approach break-in procedure on your ZX-12R?
Drive it like you stole it- that's my method. I rode mine home from the dealer and put it on the dyno the same day. The following weekend I was at the drag strip. Beat on it and change the oil regularly = done. Factory "break in" is a waste of time.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC