oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 29, 2008 03:48 AM
Not removing the flies?
I read through the topic of this all the way through many times, and have a possible idea, whether it is possible or not I do not know as I have never seen the setup and online microfiche stinks to look at, but someone might.
I know there are lots and lots who would like the benifit of not removing the "flies" but have the benifit of what having them wide open would do and not void warranty.
I know they are not linked to the throttle, they are electrically controlled by the ecu. My suggestion here is what if:
What if you remove the actuator and make an adjustable plate that will hold them open? Leave the actuator plugged in and zip tied off to the side somewhere. Or start the bike up cold and unplug it (while the flies are open, if it is a regular voltage motor they might just stay there), and if they do get another one to leave plugged in on the side.
If someone has any more input I would be gracious, it is something I really would like to solve for everyone, or help to anyway. I have my father in law as help too who is an electronic whiz. We just need to all work together to figure it out if possible as I think many would want it this way..
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
  
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chez
Expert Class
Posts: 134
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posted April 29, 2008 02:48 PM
 Edited By: chez on 29 Apr 2008 15:49
Believe me once you ride the bike without flies you will never go back....I removed them in my zx14 also. Yes they will void warranty. You must update Fuel Map with Power Commander is easiest as they have maps from places like FuelMoto for flies removed.
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Chez
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 29, 2008 03:10 PM
I remember my 2000 hayabusa, it had no secondary flies, wayyyy snappy. I do not know how many times just taking off from a light in cooler weather and the tire would just break loose and fishtail all over the place, Honestly it felt like I could burn the first 3 gears, a little scary but cool! I bet a lot of us would have liked to have the actual shaft drive version of the zx-14, the way it is, but leave it to the sales department to say "we need to tame it down if we want to sell more of these"!
Hopefully we can put all our wits together to come up with a solution of leaving the flies in, but open. I am willing to help. I priced a new throttle body unit at almost $1300, wish I could get my hands on a used one, think I could get it straight just by having that and the shop manual. The secondary flies will not be a real hinderance being left in, and a lot of us, including me want the best factory warranty there is going, and keep it.
Chez, have you actually seen how they worked? How many wires to the motor driving them? Is it removable (the motor)? I think I need to order a shop manual.....
Reguards,
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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TedG
Moderator
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posted April 29, 2008 04:32 PM
First the big problem with just removing the actuator is that it's position is determined by feedback from the position sensor. BUT .... and this just may work, is make a small adapter that connects the stepper motor to the position sensor (that is really what is happening when you remove the flies) with a shaft. Now the ECU gets proper feedback and then the flies could be locked open. Then if warranty work is needed you just put the actuator and sensor back on from the outside. Of course the PC is still needed because it would have the exact same effect as removing the plates. Hmmmmm
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 29, 2008 05:05 PM
Is there an actuater on one side of the plate series, and a sensor on the other side? If it is all contained in one unit like cars, there would be 4 wires, 2 for sensor position feedback, and 2 for power, usually the ecu controlls the ground (current). I have no I idea if it a stepper moror or not, stepper motors are used in a lot of things like the guages, though those are low powered. If you ever took a stepper motor guage assembly out and rotated them in a vertical circular pattern they will swing by themselves to any position kinda like a snowball globe that you play with. Yes there are stepper motors with great tourque, such as a cnc lathe I used to run, accurate and powerful (must be gear reduction).
Now I see you are saying on one side of the tb, there is a motor device, and on the other side is a sensor? Yes to couple them would be ideal, but there might be limits it needs. Usually when a system is started up, just like the guages there are limits (physical limits) where the motor will sweep both ways to find them and record open and closed, whether or not kawi uses this I do not know. Only playing with the throttle body will tell you this.
With the plates removed, what are the physical limits given to the secondary flies, are they hard stops? If so, we may need to make the adapter with limiters to act as the actual flies. I still think it is all doable, some might not see it that way, but I think anything is possible, just need more input...
Thanks.
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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TedG
Moderator
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posted April 29, 2008 05:26 PM
Edited By: TedG on 29 Apr 2008 18:26
It is a stepper motor setup. In my business we use a great many stepper motors and I have profiled many different motor's accelerating and deceleration curves and written routines to control them.
But this one is pretty simple, one side is the motor device and at the other end of the butterfly rod is the sensor. The limits are setup by the flies themselves so the adapter would have to incorporate those limits. I haven't looked but it most likely does sweep to both stops to determine it's "home position".
I myself would rather go down a route like this so I could restore it easily just in case.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 29, 2008 05:32 PM
Maybe we could or should work on this together, you never know how many ears or eyes are looking at this??? Yes it would help a lot, and that is the true intention, but who knows, there might be someone watching who would like to discover this by themselves so to speak.
If you have any suggestions post them simple, then mail me directly if you wish.
I know it is possible, with huge possiblilities.....
Reguards,
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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wormgear
Expert Class
Posts: 339
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posted April 29, 2008 06:19 PM
quote:
Yes they will void warranty.
Not unless it is determined that the mod caused the problem. I believe the flies are installed to protect the rider and that the eng. / drive train will not be damaged by the extra low-end torque. Also reinstalling the flies would be just as easy as removing them and if I ever have a problem that I think could even possibly be blamed on the flies removal, I'd put them back before taking it in.
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GodDamnit there's always such a big temptation to be good, to be good! (Tom Waits)
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FASTESTbusaAROUND
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted April 29, 2008 08:39 PM
Big fucking waste of time...others on the ZX14 board here have tried with no luck...just fucking pull 'em and be done with it. For those afraid of warranty -- you can always put 'em back if you need to. What you're all suggesting, IMO is even worse than pulling them in the 1st place. 
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FYYFF!!!
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 30, 2008 02:31 AM
Everyone can have their own opinion on this, and you are entitled to. Do I think the system is defeatable?, definantly. Just because many many others have tried and failed does not mean that it cannot be done, what could be considered a waste of time by some is just a callenge for others.
I believe the only other way around it, and I do not know if even this has been tried before, would be to remove the flies, and drill a series of holes in them, like 3 around the top and 3 around the bottom evenly spaced, maybe 1/4 dia. or so and reinstall them. It just may be enough air to give you what you need, probably would need a whole different remap just not as agressive as the pull them out idea.
Maybe they can't be put back in easily either, I do not know. I do know that many throttle plates have very little clearance and are aligned at the factory to be dead center as to not cause bind up. Just a little play in the screw vs. plate hole might cause an issue. I have not seen the setup yet so I cannot verify this.
Last thing, doesn't a jis screwdriver come in the tool kit with the bike?
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 06:57 AM
This is called thinking out of the box. Yes pulling the flies is one way, this could be another to accomplish exactly the same thing. I still think the best way is to build a board that would totally fake out the ECU by looking the stepper motor inputs and then duplicate the sensor output.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 30, 2008 02:19 PM
Ted,
All that is needed is to fool the system into thinking it is doing what it should, even though the flies are fixed open, then the pc3 and the map. I guess there are many ways about how it can be accomplished without using a tre which basically must put the ecu into limp mode of sorts as the loss of gear indicator etc.
I really need a service manual, a printed one. Are you sure the secondary tp sensor is not built into the motor as they usually do with cars using motors to control things, they are usually built right in. I have not personally seen the 14's setup so I do not know. If the sensor is built in it would be a lot easier to make something with limiters in it to go onto it.
It is possible that the ecu only does a sweep of the flies when power is lost, their positions kept in internal constant memory. It would be interesting to watch what happens under both conditions.
One last thing, are the seconary flies under spring tension or controlled only by the motor.. I would say that if only the motor controls them the motor must be gear reduction to have the tourque to hold them where need be without flopping around by themselves.
I think the mechanical method might be easier than building a board, but a board might work as well. Best thing would be to pay someone to rewrite kawis program and flash the dang computer to hold them open all the time. Most modern cars are now using generic computers capable of being used in many different vehicles with different accesories and engine trans combos. It saved the mfr. a good bit of money as they can make 1, and lots of them, to cut costs, the software dictates the needs of the specific vehicle. Getting rebuilt computers now is way cheaper with generic models that they ever were before, by a long shot...
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 02:32 PM
Edited By: TedG on 30 Apr 2008 16:02
We have gone over this several times. The problem is finding the time and energy to do it.
Here is link to get a manual http://www.concours.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=42631
I am 99.9% sure the sensor is on the far end of the rod. As for how it positions itself, all you need to do is look at it when it powers up. Retaining it in flash would be useless, because it could be moved manually or stick or something. You would want to make sure of it's position. And reflashing the ECU is not an option on most of Kwaks ECUs. FBA is right about just removing the flies, it is by far the simplest way. But if there is an easy to restore option that only requires a small board ..... The very easiest way would be to get a very small stepper motor that you could mount on a board and have it drive a pot also on that board. Then there would be no programming no special power requirements. Just plug and play.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
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posted April 30, 2008 02:45 PM
Yeah, the time.... I know the feeling. Just got the manual, thanks a bunch! I am going to look it over reaaaaallllllyyyyyy good :-) . I really do not want to drag this on, but it IS possible...
Knowing how something works is vital to understanding how to beat it.
Thanks Ted,
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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chez
Expert Class
Posts: 134
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posted April 30, 2008 03:02 PM
Warranty?
Gettng anyone to honor warranty here is a waste of time anyhow......!!!!!!
____________
Chez
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
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posted April 30, 2008 03:38 PM
Ok, I have got the manual, and went through the sections describing testing for not only the secondary controller motor, but also the secondary sensor. You are right, and the pics prove it. The motor is 4 wire on the right side, and the sensor is 3 wire on the left.
The sensor is a regular type tp sensor, 3 wires (pot). The motor probably uses 2 wires for power and 2 for the sensor position. I asume the sensor must have to correlate with the motor as feedback to get the OK from the ecu.
There was a big warning at the top of both sections stating that never remove these sensors as they are precision set at the factory, then the next on I get a kick out of! Do not drop sensors as they may be damaged by the shock of them hitting the gound. Well If you were never to remove them, how would they???
If there was a defect upon testing with either the motor or sensor, the entire tb unit is to be replaced, you are talking $1200 bucks,just for the unit. Sensors are not available seperate.
Just thought I would elaborate on what I found.
Chez, did you have a warrany issue that was not resolved???
Reguards,
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 04:02 PM
No, the motor is probably a bipolar arrangement hence the 4 wires. The current is applied in a series to drive the motor forward or backward in steps. There are no power wires per say, because all four wires are power at some point. You are right about the pot though, one lead should be ground, another will be +12, and the last is the voltage position.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 30, 2008 04:11 PM
One final note for now, to test the sensor they want you to measure votage/resistance by moving the flies by hand, physically moving them with your fingers, does that say anything?
Gnight,
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 04:18 PM
Edited By: TedG on 30 Apr 2008 17:42
Here is a circuit that kind of explains how it works.
The four transistors Q1-4 supply ground to each of the ends of the motor windings. The flip flops will change polarity with each pulse to the "STEP", The S1 (switch) gives you the direction the step will take. Actually this circuit is rather clever and cheap. I found it on the internet. Usually you just buy a stepper motor controller and feed it pulses and a direction. Oh by the way this is one of the things I do for a living. This really isn't what is used in our case because it is using what is called a unipolar setup but it gets the point across.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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TedG
Moderator
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posted April 30, 2008 04:22 PM
quote:
One final note for now, to test the sensor they want you to measure votage/resistance by moving the flies by hand, physically moving them with your fingers, does that say anything?
Gnight,
Rob
Yes as in my previous post. The position is sensed by the voltage from the pot which is moved by the stepper motor. That reference/position (bad words because ground and +12 are the real references) tells the ECU where the flies are at that given moment.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 04:41 PM
Actually one of the coolest stepper motors I have seen is what GM uses in their gauges. A stepper just bigger than a quarter and maybe 1/4 inch thick made of plastic and I think they are bipolar. It they are, all that would be required is just hook the four wires going the motor and have it turn a pot. All that really needs to be known is the voltage delta per step and what the votage is at full open and closed.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted April 30, 2008 05:12 PM
I knew that you were into this, most of the reason I joined was for this specific reason. Guess what my in laws do?
Cad cam circuit board designers, that's all they ever do/did for a living.
I would have been in bed, but the wife is being a pain, am I the only one??
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 06:13 PM
No you are not the only one, WTF is there a full moon? Yesterday was a very bad day.
I also write code for embedded controllers, communications, etc. I will bet you have even used some of my inventions or code.
I can think of 5 different ways to fool the ECU. But I don't have the time to do anything and at the moment I want to ride and don't want to have the bike down while I play. I have an oscilloscope (personal) to look at the stepper motor signals, and the sensor but again no time.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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oncourse
Expert Class
I hate flies!!!
Posts: 467
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posted May 01, 2008 02:59 AM
Ok, anyone have a used complete tb unit to sell cheap? I looked on ebay and found a zx-14 unit for $250, but no councours. You can't even find used councours parts on there yet... People must really be as passionate about this bike like I am!
Ted, I wish I could give you the time, I am in the same situation as well. So this saga continues.....
Rob
____________
True intellegence is not measured by your degrees.
04 klr 250 Lots of mods and 70 MPG!!
08 Connie 2 bros. Carbon. Helibars. Flies out, PC3!!!
2003 kx 500 SOLD
2004 KX 500 In service now, whata BEAST!
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chez
Expert Class
Posts: 134
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posted May 01, 2008 02:42 PM
I resolved my warranty problem.....The bike was stolen from my driveway and was never seen again......
____________
Chez
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