trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 23, 2013 04:20 AM
Electronis Issue
I have an electrical issue under power that I cannot duplicate in the pits. When we attempt to make a run the bike will not shift correctly. If we remove the electronics from the circuit and have only the shift button power the relays that make it shift it's fine. Here's the kicker, when you review the data from the run with the elecronics connected it gets a shift signal as soon as you release the two step button. Sometimes it goes away before time for the next gear and sometimes it don't. We have made runs when it stayed on all the way down the track and only lost the signal when it was time for the shift which is exactly reverse to the way it should be working. But once back in the pit I cannot duplicate the problems seen on the track.
So far we've: replaced the shift minder ( DSM-2H)
replaced the shift counter
replaced the T-101 coil adapter
replaced all the relays (4) that are associated with the shifting.
closely inspected all the wiring the the extent possible without completely re-wiring the whole bike.
What we haven't done: replace the two-step or the delay box since neither of them directly have anything to do with the shift circuit.
My shift solenoid is powered all the time and is actuated by ground . That ground is supplied via a relay. That relay is powered all the time and is actuated by ground. The ground for that relay is supplied from another relay that is actuated by +12vdc supplied either by the shift button or the shift minder. The amount electonics on this bike is two fold since we are running a stock wiring harness, ecu, injection, etc. I'm confident that the problem is in the after market electornics because it works fine off just the shift button. We do not normally run a shift light becasue it normally shifts it's self when it is suppose to and there is no need for it. We do have one mounted on the bike and the wiring is available to connect it. We tried hooking up just the shift light to the electronics while on a button shifting pass to see what it would do and it was on before we left the starting line just like the data had indicated.
A couple weeks back we pulled over 12 hundred miles round trip and didn't get to compete becasue this problem started and we made a trip to our local track last night expecting to have it fixed after changing the shift minder but it's still there. These second gear take offs is killing the slider and continually making passes without it shifting properly can't be good for the 1-4 auto 6speed. And being on the rev limiter all the time because it's not shifting probably isn't helping the valve train so if anyone has any suggestions I'd like to hear them. Remember the only stupid question is the one you don't ask! I intend to post this on several forums and when the issue is resolved I will gladly return to give an update.
  
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 23, 2013 04:49 AM
 Edited By: 1badzx12r on 23 Jun 2013 12:53
buy you an MPS auto shift box and hook it up independent of anything but shifting... power wire to 12v .ground to ground. coil wires to coils and put #1 mark wire to #1 coil. and trigger wire to horn button and air solenoid.. don't try to tie it into an SB6 or some crap your just asking for headaches then ..
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 23, 2013 07:46 AM
That's what I had in the begining until I got the auto transmission. Now I don't need or want kill in the first 4 gears but need it from 4th to 5th and 5th to 6th. And I also need the shift counter to be able to take away the shifts after 6th just in case I run out of gear just before the stripe. We normally shift well below the rev limiter.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 23, 2013 03:01 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 23 Jun 2013 23:02
well what I have done before is use my power commander to button shift with .. it won't auto-shift but you can set kill time from 0 to 300 per gear
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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quikgix
Expert Class
Posts: 274
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posted June 23, 2013 05:23 PM
I have my airshift goin through an SB6 and my head hurts because it works great.
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1352cc 8.39@159mph on motor cant wait to spray this bitch
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 23, 2013 06:51 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 24 Jun 2013 03:01
quote:
I have my airshift goin through an SB6 and my head hurts because it works great.
well patent the technology because your the only guy on the planet that's made it a stand alone autoshift box.. http://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?p=78167
http://www.mpsracing.com/products/MSD/sb6.asp sure looks like it takes 2 boxes
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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quikgix
Expert Class
Posts: 274
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posted June 23, 2013 08:02 PM
Edited By: quikgix on 24 Jun 2013 04:02
Im pushing the button to shift. didn't see that he wanted auto shift. oooops
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1352cc 8.39@159mph on motor cant wait to spray this bitch
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wkelley
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted June 24, 2013 12:35 AM
check all your ground wires and make sure they ALL are secured tight
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 25, 2013 08:02 AM
In this simple diagram I failed to show the dioed across the coil for the solenoid but otherwise it should be accurate.
[URL=http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/trganey/media/ShiftCircuit.jpg.html] [/URL]
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 26, 2013 02:26 AM
Update: Here is a corrected drawing of the circuit. I had went into snap bucket to try and correct it and that didn't work out too well.
Also yesterday we reviewed the data and learned that the unwanted shifts were always occuring at 8100rpm. We disconnected the shift cylinder from the shifter and removed the chain. Then we disconnected the output wire coming from the shift minder leaving the shift counter in the circuit. This was done to see if some kind of feed back from the shift counter was causing the unwanted shifts. We connected a meter to the output wire from the shift minder and connected our gauge set to monitor the rpm.
We reved it several times to about 9k and didn't see any shifts on the shift counter but did get an output from the shift minder every time we exceeded 8100. The shift rpm was set to 10k. We changed the shift point to 11975 and the results were the same. It is sending an output every time we hit or exceeded 8100rpm.
What kind of problem could all of a sudden be causing the shift minder to activate at 8100 no matter what the shift point is set too?
[URL=http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/trganey/media/CorrectedShiftCircuit.jpg.html] [/URL]
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 27, 2013 02:21 AM
Last nights efforts: We installed a .1uf capacitor and a 10k ohm resistor in parallel from the input of the Shift Minder to ground.
We installed a new shielded input wire from the T-101 adapter at the coils back to the input of the Shift Minder.
We removed and tested all four coils. They were all within the limits listed in the service manual.
We removed the input wire from the Shift Minder completely to see if the triggering was coming in through the +/- 12.
Results were that the only thing that affected our problem was when we removed the input wire completely. So what ever the trigger is it is definately coming in through the input wire. I would suppose that should have been a given but I've seen stranger things happen. LOL
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 27, 2013 06:21 AM
Here's the area where I'm going to concentrate next. The #3 Joint connector is frame grounded at the same place the battery is grounded and it supplies ground to both connectors on the ecu. I've heard of other folks having trouble with these in the past.
[URL=http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/trganey/media/ZX14FrameGround.png.html] [/URL]
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1tbone
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted June 27, 2013 04:27 PM
hey tim, is there any type of crankshaft harmonic buzz at 8100rpm .i chased some gremlins once turned out be a harmonic buzz of a electrical connection
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1tbone
Parking Attendant
Posts: 19
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posted June 27, 2013 04:29 PM
about 7500 -8000 rpm i should add
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 27, 2013 04:45 PM
quote:
about 7500 -8000 rpm i should add
I'm not sure what I've got or not got at this point to be honest.
Our latest efforts: We inspected the mentioned grounds as well as all grounds associated with either the ecu or the shifting circuit.
Someone else suggested that we try a signal from the injectors instead of the coils. That made it worse!
We tried disconnecting one leg of the T-101 and nothing changed at all.
We have an ecu on the way. Hopefully that will be it but if it's not I'm out of ideas!
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted June 28, 2013 02:22 PM
This afternoons efforts: We have un-installed the Bazzaz Box, MSD Launch Master (two step), and RacePak Data Logger and the problem still exists.
We are anxiously awaiting the delivery of another ecu. The only problem with that is, that's it's a used unit. Who's to say that it doesn't have the same problem that ours has. After all ours runs fine.
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted July 03, 2013 06:31 AM
ECU was delivered yesterday. It did not connect the problem. We did try a different brand and type of box and it is showing promise. There will still have to be more testing done before we can celebrate!
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted July 03, 2013 09:50 AM
quote:
ECU was delivered yesterday. It did not connect the problem. !
GLAD TO HEAR THIS..members told me I was crazy when a ecu swap fixed my problem
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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trganey
Expert Class
Posts: 196
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posted July 07, 2013 01:49 AM
Problem Solved: For those of you interested here's a brief description of
what the problem was and what we think initally caused it. If you refer to the
simple drawing of the circuit you can see that we were breaking the signa
l from the T-101 adapter to the Shift Minder with a relay once we reached 6th
gear. We did this so we could run the bike to the rev limiter on the top end
without it attempting to shift again. This had worked without a problem for
quite some time until the next to the last pass we made at Indy. On that pass
it attempted an additional shift in 6th gear. The only way it should have been
able to do that was for the signal relay to be bad so we replaced it. The next
pass out it was fine. We didn't run the bike again until the Columbus race
where it was trying to shift before it would even leave the line. After some
parts swapping, a little trouble shooting, and a whole lot of head scratching
we determined that the tach signal was being amplified by the signal relay.
You may ask how is that possible. The relay was mounted on the aluminum
plate that seperates the fuel tank/ electronics area from the rear wheel well.
For some reason 8100 rpm created just the right harmonic in the piece of
aluminum to vibrate or chatter the contacts on the signal relay breaking up
the tach signal in to multiple parts causing the shift minder to see X times the
pulses that it should have been seeing. We didn't suspect anything with this
relay because it was suppose to keep the bike from shifting not cause it to
shift! After all we'd replaced it with a brand new one at Indy on that second
to last pass. Hind sight being 20/20 I'm not sure that the quality of the new
relay that we put on was eaqual to the original quality of the old one. In any
case once we bypassed it the unwanted shifting problem went away. During
our testing we tried an MSD 8969 window switch which we were not
impressed with at all. It may work fine for some folks in some applications but
we attempted three passes with it and was not happy with what we seen on
the data logger at all.Then we put the shift minder back on for the last two
passes and it worked fine. Bottom line, we will chalk this one up to a cheap
relay. Yes we could have mounted it in a different location or manner and it
may have been fine but the reality is that the one before it had worked in
that arrangement for a long time without fail. Thanks to all those who offered
suggestions, advice and tried to assist us in eliminating this problem. We
won't soon forget our expreience with this one!
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted July 07, 2013 03:58 AM
thats pretty interesting! Im wondering if some of the factory relays are rubber mounted for this very reason?
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