LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 06, 2013 05:39 AM
 Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 6 Jun 2013 16:41
Mark:
Here you go with what I have experienced as it relates to your two specific questions. Also bear in mind that I am 165 lbs relative to whatever you weigh and whenever I have tested standing start to redline in gear acceleration I leave near idle (2,000 rpm +/-), the taller 41 tooth rear sprocket calms the bike down and I am not a drag racer.
#1. No. For me the bike just...goes. I feed it throttle gradually in 1st as I release the clutch and then pin it once I am rolling and it accelerates with no squat at the rear and no wheelie. This behavior continues up thru 4th gear @ 11k (indicated) which is the limit of what I have tested from a standing start given how I use my bike. We'll see how this changes once my ecu is reflashed with the resultant increase in torque acting on the suspension...sooner with the "flys" opening..sooner and additional ignition timing adding torque as well. Never mind for now, what a pipe and retune will add to that added power conversation.
#2. No. However, if I encounter a sharp enough bump it can transmit a bit of shudder through the bike, but it doesn't upset my chosen line or the overall stability I have in terms of control.
I would encourage you to experiment...starting with a baseline level of settings using a bit of road that incorporates all the road issues you typically will encounter wherever you ride. I spent an entire day initially, on a remote bumpy country road going back and forth over various sections of that road at varying speeds and swapping riders.
Adjustment wise, every thing started with taking sag measurements on the bike for me and all my normal riding gear and then unladen. After that, the focus was pre-load up front, because the OEM setting (8 lines showing) was way soft so I had ton's of brake dive. I ended up with 2 lines less showing than what worked on the '07. Because I had a baseline set up from my prior '07 bike we then used those settings as a starting point for rebound and compression all around and made a ton of passes on the test road.
We shared our feedback and made...small adjustments to filter out whatever reactions the '12 made that I didn't like accordingly. Eventually we cranked in a fair bit more rebound and compression up front than my '07 liked to get the fork totally sorted as I prefer. The rear settings are the exact same as I had on my '07. Once I got the set up to where I was confident the bike was...predictable, I now just tweak psi. That said, ambient temps, your weight and the specific psi will affect how it responds.
This entire... exercise will be repeated this summer when the bike gets ecu re-flashed, pipe and custom dyno tune because what works..now might be useless with more power. I have found it very effective to engage a small circle of skilled additional test riders because of the feedback and how subtle differences in riding style or rider weight affect how the bike reacts.
The reason I share all this is because I ended up a good bit stiffer on settings than I anticipated and in combination with the temperature based psi settings, the 14r delivers all the edge grip/control I could ever want and I have lost none of the casual pace..civility that distinguishes ZX14's from other bikes.Given that the gen 2 bike has firmer OEM springs than gen 1 did, perhaps that (firmer settings) is what is required to take advantage of it all. For sure, my relative light weight helps also.
Lastly, I cannot convey in words what it is like to ride a bike with this power level and have it be completely....predictable in its response to rider inputs. I could not have gotten to this point with the set up without my tuner, Truth Martinez. His road race tuning expertise is reflected in all I have experienced and shared about the 14r here on ZX14.com. If you are deadly serious about extracting all the performance possible out of shredding corners on your 14/14r, I can arrange for folks to be in touch with him. Yes the big beast...can do quite well on the...side of her tire(s) set up...right.
Good luck,
Leo (Victor)
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 06, 2013 05:41 AM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 6 Jun 2013 16:07
My reply to your top out query....
Deleted double post.
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 06, 2013 01:08 PM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 6 Jun 2013 21:25
Mark:
1 correction in terms if settings, the 168mm of pre-load I am running at the rear on the '12 is a bit firmer than I had in prior set up on my '07 (171mm).
In general, the intent was to make the springs front and rear do the majority of the work via pre-load settings and then add just enough compression and/or rebound to provide the wheel control needed to balance chassis control with bump absorption for the quality of roads I normally encounter. The process I described earlier included testing in rain and the 1,975 mile road trip.
The only downside is now I can't blame the bike if I screw up...ever. Hope this all is helpful to you.
Good luck,
Leo
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cliffrandall
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posted June 06, 2013 02:21 PM
Best $150.00 I ever spent was with a pro 'Suspension Tuner' at a track day held at Mosport back in 2009.......He basically sat me on and off my 1270 (then on his stands) for about 30 minutes making various changes and working the suspension until he felt it was the best he could do with what we had, a 500lbs street bike.....Huge difference when I went back out on the track, then sadly I crashed it.
Suspension is a soft science, many dynamic variables come into play for the set-up to be just right for YOU. As it was explained to me -"we need to balanced the bike'. My recommendation - If you can find one, get a pro involved, its a great learning experience.
Cliff
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WarriorOnTheEdge
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posted June 10, 2013 07:30 PM
Hi Leo,
Just rolled out of the workshop with new Bridgestone S20s and suspension settings ala' Leo. I am not much heavier than you so I think that will be a good starting point.
Can't wait to take a run up the Old Road (Pacific Highway) to feel it out!
Thanks for taking the time to reveal and explain your setup.
Cheers,
Mark
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 11, 2013 04:40 AM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 11 Jun 2013 13:36
Mark:
You are welcome and the point of ZX14.com. is to share. Hopefully, you can take my input as a baseline and then tweak it to exactly suit how....you ride your 14R. Trust me, there are people here who... forgot more about bikes than I know. 5-6 years ago I showed up for my 1st time at a track day with a friend and found out....real fast that I had no..clue about set up, never mind...riding. Fortunately, I have met some people who I have learned alot from and with whom, I consult with all the time to learn more. Go with the settings that provide you the best combination of the feedback you want/need from your bike and control over it when pushing the traction limits.
Also with regard to the rear pre-load setting I am running (168mm), I would NOT encourage you to set yours there (ie below Kawasaki recommended 170mm) It works for me, but I don't want you to potentially have it questioned that your settings where "not recommended" if you ever have an issue with your 14R and then be in a bad place if you needed to deal with Kawasaki. The 14R is a...large sporting motorcycle, BUT it is much more nimble than most would expect.
Now just time to get the ecu "tuned" to the same level as my setup so I can dial up power as precisely as I can...grip. The OEM "safety mode" intrudes sometimes even though the T/C is switched off and on my 14R at least, that makes for inconsistent/delayed throttle response in the lower 3 gears often at exactly the..wrong moment.
That said, it is still just great fun to go out on bike with this much power and have complete control over it because it is utterly......predictable and therefore ultra confidence inspiring in the corners. Just be careful that you don't get too...greedy with the throttle because of that...control. It is...NEVER the bike's fault if we get it...wrong.
Good luck with it and enjoy,
Victor (aka LV)
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Bunyip
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posted June 12, 2013 03:04 AM
Pilot Road 3- avoid like the plague- mushy feel.
Dunlop Q2/ Sportsmart brilliant. Apparently the Q3 is even better. Hard to imagine.
The s20 is a good tyre but doesn,t last. I get 50% more out of the Dunlop.
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Bunyip
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posted June 12, 2013 03:05 AM
....and Warrior- be careful on the OPH- is crawling with cops these days.
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WarriorOnTheEdge
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posted June 12, 2013 03:33 AM
Thanks Bunyip,
I take it very easy these days - especially on new tire!
I got 13,700 out of my original S20s ... I probably should have changed them 1,500 earlier.
All in all I am happy with the grip vs. wear. Some people find that they chop out on the front right but that didn't really happen with mine to any great extent - I do wonder what causes that? The fact that we drive on the left?
Cheers,
Mark
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WarriorOnTheEdge
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posted June 12, 2013 03:43 AM
Hi Victor,
The guys in the workshop were cool about the setup - after all it is just a spring. I am out of warrantee now so I don't see that being an issue.
If this works out I will get my 2013 SE the same. It will be interesting when I visit it next week as it is running standard configuration still.
Let us know how you get on with your ECU. Personally, I would like to be able to stop the 'detonation' that occurs when WOT is applied below 4,500 or 5,000 rpm. Probably due to compression ratio being so high ... but maybe that is another thread.
Cheers,
Mark
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 12, 2013 04:24 AM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 12 Jun 2013 12:33
Mark:
I will be curious to hear how the bike works for you and then what tweaks you make to it to refine for your preferences. I find that now I have to extra vigilant against being over confident because the bike is working so well. Really its a matter of managing the throttle and not being too...greedy with it.
As far as your detonation problem, I expect it is whatever gas you are using. US spec 14R gas tank sticker calls for at least 90 octane. Here in the states, 89 octane works well if you only ride the bike hard, but in normal riding it too will detonate in lighter load throttle use.....especially if you are rolling on power from lower rpm's. I tried 89 straight, 89 mixed with a smidgen of 90+ octane and finally just decided to run 93 after my testing could not totally eliminate detonation with any 89 in my tank.
Since I am in 90+ degree temps 6 months of the year, I run only 93 octane now to avoid the exact problem you described even though the bike doesn't run as well at WOT on it versus 89. I chose to be safe since I plan to keep mine for many years and many miles. When I get the ecu reflashed and the pipe + tune done I will post something to detail how it worked out.
Btw, since your "down under" have you made it over to Phillip Island for a WSK or MotoGP event or to any V8 supercar races like Bathhurst 1000?
Good luck,
Leo
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WarriorOnTheEdge
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posted June 13, 2013 05:29 AM
Hi Leo,
In Oz the tank sticker read use 95 or higher octane fuel. Here we have 98, 95, and whatever 'standard' is (maybe 93 with ethanol).
I use 98 and I find that I have that harsh rattle if I roll on too hard from low revs. I might try a different brand and take more notice.
I have been to Bathurst and driven around the circuit but not to PI. Have done CSS at Eastern Creek.
On another note ... does your front tire ever wear more on the left?
Cheers,
Mark
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 13, 2013 11:51 AM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 13 Jun 2013 19:58
Mark:
98 octane would be really nice, but we haven't had anything that high in the unleaded gas era for..pump gas. I have no idea why you are experiencing what you are on..98 octane when I am good with..93? Admittedly the bike runs...better at WOT on 89 here, just not in the heat riding...normally or rolling on from lower rpm's. Maybe the OEM tune is different there given your fuel difference.
You have to go to PI for..me. Every April, I watch on TV and dream of being there in person one day for MotoGP. One day I will sort it out and make the trip. I watch pretty much every V8 supercar race they broadcast here and thoroughly enjoy it.
Tire-wise, I have never had any...funny wear pattern up front, but I did have a bit of a vibration problem with my 1st replacement M5 (it turned out to be "out of round"), so a 2nd new tire was mounted and problem was..solved. Are your roads significantly..crowned down there? Just a guess but otherwise I have no clue why you see that kind of wear pattern. Let me know how the set up works for you there.
Good luck,
Leo
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WarriorOnTheEdge
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posted June 14, 2013 12:22 AM
Leo,
If you come to Oz I will come to PI with you - you can't say fairer than that?!
I am quite looking forward to a decent scrub-in session this weekend (weather permitting). So far I have just been to work and back etc. but I am already enjoying the firmer feel that the motorcycle has. I will let you know how it goes.
As for camber etc. we have a mix of cambers ... more in the local streets and roads and less on the freeway. I just ask myself why would front tires wear on the right hand side and camber and fighting camber with pressure on the bars is one possible explanation. I wondered if the effect was reversed in the states where you drive on the wrong oh sorry right side of the road? :-)
Come out some time I have some bike salesmen mates ... get yourself a second hand 14R or whatever and do a bit of touring PI+EC. Lots of great roads out here. Sell it back when you leave.
Sounds great huh?
Cheers,
Mark
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 14, 2013 03:13 AM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 14 Jun 2013 11:23
Mark:
Sounds like a fair deal to me. For sure you guys have the ultimate remote country roads to have some fun on bikes. Eastern Creek, Adelaide, Bathhurst or any other venue would be awesome to take in some V8 supercar and of course PI anytime would be a treat. Maybe in 2014 and if not definitely in 2015. Working on moving to the west coast anyway so maybe that will save me some airfare, lol.
I am very curious to hear your perspective on the set up we came up with over here. Personally I like the bike to be "buttoned up" with a firm but supple ride and everything under control when I am turning up the intensity in a corner so I can focus on my riding without any concern about what unpredictable thing it..might do. For me, the most amazing thing is how well mine puts down the power. No matter how hard I am on the throttle off a corner it just...goes with no wheelie or instability which was totally shocking since I am a relative flyweight, now < 165 lbs.
Honestly, it took me a bit to..trust that it really... was unfazed by my inputs but once I did, I can't imagine not having that sense of complete confidence in the bike doing what I want...when I want it to. That said it...will get tweaked when the pipe and tune happen to account for the additional power and...retain that level of control.
Right now just looking forward to getting my pipe installed and bike tuned so I can..properly enjoy the 14r for these summer months. Btw, take a look at my exhaust post if you haven't already. Top shelf quality and MotoGP tuning expertise in the final product.
Keep me posted,
Victor (aka Leo)
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bfg9000
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posted June 15, 2013 06:57 PM
I'm in the Philippines and the stock tires are 190/50 Metzeler Sportec M5. Not very happy with them, they didn't feel "right" when turning in a tight corner, seemed not to have consistent feel. The rear only lasted about 5000 Km before I had to replace it due to wear. Decided to replace both front and rear with Pirelli Diablo Rosso II tires. Rear is now a 190/55. Feels a lot better during turns, more consistent and stable and sticky. Not sure how long the tire will last though, I've only gone about 700 Km so far on them.
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 16, 2013 03:41 AM
bfg9000:
A few questions given your experience with the M5 Metzeler's as follows:
1. What suspension settings do you run front/rear now and when you had M5's?
2. What PSI do you run front/rear?
3. What is the range of temp's you ride in there in the Philippines?
Good luck with the Pirelli's,
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bfg9000
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posted June 16, 2013 07:21 AM
1. Factory settings (which are for average to poor quality roads, which are the norm here). Same settings now and before.
2. 42 PSI, following the user manual's recommendation.
3. High 20s to low 30s (Celsius)
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 16, 2013 07:34 AM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 16 Jun 2013 15:43
bfg9000:
I don't know if you read the entire discussion in this post from WarriorOnTheEdge, but I would suggest 2 things:
1. The factory settings are very soft and if you ride twisty roads the feedback and control is...alot less that it..could be.
2. The factory 42 psi settings also will mask the traction potential of...whatever tire you have. I do understand the...poor road bit, but you could likely go firmer that factory settings for more control and manage the traction/ride part with a lower psi setting.
I asked what your temps are because the hotter the temps, the more opportunity you have to run lower psi for better traction/feedback and also retain a decent ride on not very good roads. For it to work, you would have to adjust the suspension to firmer settings to control the bike more to take advantage of the additional grip.
The lower psi then shifts the "ride" control to your tires while improving traction regardless of brand. Earlier in this post I referenced PSI settings (31/35) that work for me here in the US in 80-100 degree (F) range running much stiffer settings than factory.
A less aggressive but still manageable option could be 34-36 front/ and 38-40 rear. You have to see what makes you confident riding the way...you do and gives the feedback you want/need.
In your case, if you are not satisfied with how your bike is working now probably some middle ground between my suspension (very firm) settings and factory one's (much softer) might work better and still handle your roads there.
Good luck
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bfg9000
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posted June 16, 2013 03:13 PM
Thanks for the advice. I'm not experienced enough to dial-in the suspension properly, and I live out here in the province, none of the mechanics here are experienced enough either (well a few claim to be but I don't trust them lol). But I am going to bring the bike to the main island where there is a very good racetrack and experienced mechanics to tune the suspension for me... I'll do that instead of tinkering with the suspension myself and possibly messing it up.
For now I am content with the handling and ride, changing the tire improved it enough for me for now.
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WarriorOnTheEdge
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posted June 16, 2013 04:22 PM
Hi Victor,
Some experience from the weekend with the new firmer suspension setup (ala LV) and my new Bridgestone S20s.
Initial feel was that the bike was a lot firmer, dive on the front end was reduced, felt higher in the saddle. The new tires were inflated to 35/43 when I checked. Firm setup feels nice - more direct, lots of feedback through the bike, responds quicker. Occasionally get a bit of jarring when the road gets rough - but that is the trade off.
I am not a fan of under-inflation on this machine simply because of the weigh. I figure that you need close to the rated pressure or you are pushing the tires off the rims in the tighter corners. I imagine that the extra weight (268 KG wet - a lot of which is already over the front tire) will act to produce a sufficient "contact patch". I also think that wear will be adversely effected by running lower pressures.
On top of that - or on top of the bike - I am pushing 100 KG suited up (85 KG + leathers + boots + gloves + helmet - only guessing but I think all of that would be 10 - 15 KG in total). When two-up you could pretty much double that - putting us at or over the maximum recommended payload of 185 KG.
At the track they recommend 30/30 unless you have some compelling reason to do other than that. I think I would be wanting tire pressures of 33/33 next time for all of the above reasons. 30 psi might be fine for 190 KG litre-bikes, but I think it is a bit spongy under a 1400.
Anyway - a couple of guys have set up a nitrogen tire purge / refill / top-up business at Mt White where I was on both Saturday and Sunday. They charge a few bucks to basically remove the oxygen from your tires which have two main benefits as I see it 1. nitrogen being a larger molecule leaks at a lower rate & 2. tire pressure is more constant as the tire warms. So yeah I did this and set the pressures at 38/42 psi cold. (I guess that since the pure nitrogen doesn't expand as much as "air" does as the tires warm up that this would be equivalent to about 36/40 with air.) Over the remainder of the weekend I continued my scrub in of the new Bridgestone S20s with pleasing results. I managed to work my way toward the edge of the tires on the Old Road (without scraping anything or dragging my knee on the road) and the bike felt good at all times. Powering (fairly gently) out of the bends the bike remained steady and steerable and never felt like it would "let go". Ambient temperature ranged from about 14 up to 19 - so good having an ambient temperature sensor and display on the bike BTW !!
I might try slightly lower pressures as the loose a bit and see how that feels. Stoked with the whole thing right now and can't wait for the next run!
Will keep you posted.
Cheers,
Mark
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LeoVinceZX14
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posted June 17, 2013 04:40 AM
Edited By: LeoVinceZX14 on 17 Jun 2013 13:52
bfg9000:
I think you are.. wise to seek out the best suspension people you can find to help you get your bike set up right...for you. My comments here reflect having access to a top flight race tuner who thoroughly understands bike set up so it makes an..enormous difference. Very easy to get it...wrong if you are unsure what change you want/need.
Down the road once you do make your trip to the main island, explore the lower psi discussion with your tuners there. The...good set up people will easily be able to explain the benefits of lowered psi for better grip/feedback and help you pick psi levels that will work well on the roads..there. When in doubt, ask...more questions and avoid people who cannot explain in simple, easily understood terms, answers to whatever set up question you have for your 14R.
If anything I have posted helps you, then that is the point of it all. Glad you are happy with the Pirelli's where are of course, great tires.
Mark:
All in all...excellent news! The bottom line is going with the set up and psi level that instills confidence for how...you ride and thereby allows you to push....safely to your limit. Generally I use the "point and shoot" style on my back road runs since the 14R is happier at the exit on the power versus trail braking at the entry to turn in.
As far as the tire pressures go, I suggest you gradually adjust down from where you are @ 36/40 (nitrogen) to really feel the traction gains available to you, especially at the rear. Try my 34/38 winter psi (the upper limit of psi that the set up you got from me is developed to work with) and see how that compares for feel/grip/feedback/ride to your current levels next time you head out solo.
As you are comfortable, explore and then you will really see how the extra grip from those lower psi settings changes the game considerably. Just understand that if you run those higher PSI with the suspension settings you have from me, the bike will be a good bit harsher on less than perfect pavement regardless of your pace.
I found my comfort level, in terms of adjusting to the different..feel of lower psi by tweaking it down( sometime only 0.5 psi at a time) then just cruising for a bit to get used to the softer feel and then gradually exploring the traction available as you did in your Old Road ride. I commute, travel, whatever at 31/35 and have experienced....longer tire life thru 7,500 miles, but of course I am also 20 odd Kilos lighter than you in full leathers, helmet, etc. so that is a factor.
Honestly, my track psi settings are in the 20's, BUT that is a totally different environment (where maximum mechanical grip versus tire life is the accepted....trade off) than any on road situation and not something I would encourage anyone to run...on road. All that said, you really can...fire out of corners at WOT in the right conditions with total control and a significant safety margin. Once you experience it, you'll just shake your head and then go...do it again.
Lastly, I would encourage you to run what you have your psi now for two-up riding and tweak down as you are comfortable for solo commuting and back road work. The key is do everything gradually and stick with what...you are confident with to have...total control at your pace.
Very pleased that...YOU are happy with your 14R,
Leo
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