dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted November 22, 2012 11:23 AM
quote:
I don't doubt the cyls are changed , but If studs distort the bore at 70ftlbs then the bolts will do the same
& If you were serious about getting the bore perfect, it would be fitted with a torque plate and with studs at full tension,honed to size after boring
really if you read I explained that ... and if you knew Jim or payed any attention to his posts here you wouldnt even question his practises or knowledge...
anyway do as you like I just offered some info, refute it like an osterich ... not my motor I dont really care 
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
  
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Oz Booster
Expert Class
Posts: 230
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posted November 22, 2012 12:19 PM
" Harry aka Northernkaw told me that Jim at Competition CNC found the aftermarket studs we are all using distort the cylinder walls pulling them out of round as much as .0002 I beleive was measured with a head torque plate for boring true holes Id imagine.....
that had me a little concerned....
something to follow up on for sure"
I think you read me wrong, i am not knocking Jim or his practices , i am well aware of his experiance with these bikes and Busas, and the well deserved reputation he has
but maybe Jim did not tell Harry who yold you just how much the bolts distorted the cyls
And i should have been more clear about boring etc, should be done from new so tensioning the head pulls the cyls to true, but in mass production they may not be out enough for them to care , not checked but would hope any reboring would be done with torque plates
Anyone know for sure ??
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted November 22, 2012 01:02 PM
After all this debate about head bolts/studs, I am just gonna run sheet metal screws around the outer perimeter of the head...
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted November 25, 2012 06:51 AM
quote:
" Harry aka Northernkaw told me that Jim at Competition CNC found the aftermarket studs we are all using distort the cylinder walls pulling them out of round as much as .0002 I beleive was measured with a head torque plate for boring true holes Id imagine.....
that had me a little concerned....
something to follow up on for sure"
I think you read me wrong, i am not knocking Jim or his practices , i am well aware of his experiance with these bikes and Busas, and the well deserved reputation he has
but maybe Jim did not tell Harry who yold you just how much the bolts distorted the cyls
And i should have been more clear about boring etc, should be done from new so tensioning the head pulls the cyls to true, but in mass production they may not be out enough for them to care , not checked but would hope any reboring would be done with torque plates
Anyone know for sure ??
Not sure of Kawi practices but the bores and as far as tolerance and trueness were within half of a 10 thous inch on my 06 motor and it had 10,000 miles on it at time of rebuild
I had a professional engine builder check the deck, bores, and the runout on the crank and he c ouldnt beleive how close my motor was to perfect...
Then I explained that engine had been used in cannon ball type events with sustained periods over 8000 rpm for as long as a complete tank of fuel 1 hr at a time , many many hard rides, and seen about 80 lbs of nos.... the bottom bearings were pretty good still too!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted November 25, 2012 07:54 AM
quote:
After all this debate about head bolts/studs, I am just gonna run sheet metal screws around the outer perimeter of the head...
super glue both sides of the gasket and set the head on . forget the bolts or studs or screws altogether and save some time too....
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
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posted November 25, 2012 08:07 AM
quote:
quote:
After all this debate about head bolts/studs, I am just gonna run sheet metal screws around the outer perimeter of the head...
super glue both sides of the gasket and set the head on . forget the bolts or studs or screws altogether and save some time too....
Will liquid nails work?
____________
Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted November 25, 2012 08:28 AM
 Edited By: 1badzx12r on 25 Nov 2012 16:30
quote:
quote:
quote:
After all this debate about head bolts/studs, I am just gonna run sheet metal screws around the outer perimeter of the head...
super glue both sides of the gasket and set the head on . forget the bolts or studs or screws altogether and save some time too....
Will liquid nails work?
only with room temperatures of 98.9 degrees for 6.75 hrs and then a chill down of 36.5 minutes @ 42.4 degrees.. better than welding it on if you follow those instructions .. don't worry what it says on the directions label an old engine builder told me this secret way of doing it ..
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted November 25, 2012 08:34 AM
Edited By: kawasakijockey on 25 Nov 2012 16:34
Ok, I'm off to the hardware store...
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted November 25, 2012 09:27 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 25 Nov 2012 17:44
Its very true about the cylinder distortion on the engines with integral crankcases and cylinders.
The head bolts thread into the deck and load the deck and cylinders unlike the zx12r, busa and other designs where the head bolts go threw the head and threw the whole cylinder and thread well down below the cylinder into the crankcase.
This causes cylinder distortion that reduces the rings ability to seal.
We have know this for decades with the automotive engines and have used torque plates to fix the problem.
So when the zx-14 engine came out so did these issues with the zx14 cylinders.
This is why we use this custom made torque plate to load the cylinders and simulate the torque of the head bolts. To my knowledge we are the only ones in the country using torque plates the zx-14 cylinders. It does make a difference. All of the engines we build have cylinders finished in house on the sunnen CV-616 with special diamond tooling and this custom made torque plate.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted November 25, 2012 09:43 AM
As far as the studs vs bolts issue...
There not the same. They don't load the cylinders the same. They are made of different materials and have different cross sectional areas therefore they stretch at different torque loads and offer different clamping abilities.
We did a lot of testing and cylinder mapping of the torqued cylinders with different bolts from OEM to the various aftermarket studs on the market. Testing the relationship between clamping force and cylinder distortion and our findings were shocking.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted November 25, 2012 11:20 AM
So, no Liquid Nails then Jim???lol
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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greenbusa
Novice Class
Posts: 56
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posted November 25, 2012 11:47 AM
quote:
As far as the studs vs bolts issue...
There not the same. They don't load the cylinders the same. They are made of different materials and have different cross sectional areas therefore they stretch at different torque loads and offer different clamping abilities.
We did a lot of testing and cylinder mapping of the torqued cylinders with different bolts from OEM to the various aftermarket studs on the market. Testing the relationship between clamping force and cylinder distortion and our findings were shocking.
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm curios, in your opinion which works best?
____________
400+ hp daily driver
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted November 25, 2012 11:59 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 25 Nov 2012 20:00
quote:
So, no Liquid Nails then Jim???lol
buy a busa ..you don't have these issues wit busa's 
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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kawpower
Zone Head
Mr kawasaki 2 you!
Posts: 887
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posted November 25, 2012 01:04 PM
Edited By: kawpower on 25 Nov 2012 21:17
Nice Cliffhanger Jim and i do understand that the answer is your trade secret,and buisness is buisness,myself i have used studs in a lot of zx14 motors including my own nitrious and turbo motors clamped down between 62 lbs for nos and 70lbs for turbo with no oil blowbies or oilsmoke,so what is the point? do u loose power because of this or reliablity? im not blazin u just want to know is it really that serious.
____________
Cecil County 2010 Motorcycle ET Champ. 9 Wins- 4 RUs .06zx14 turboed for 2012 .
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted November 25, 2012 01:10 PM
No, no liquid nails...
I recommend using the stock bolts with new oem washers and moly oil mix on the threads and under the head of the bolts.
True the busa doesn't have these issues but the gsxr's do.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted November 25, 2012 02:09 PM
quote:
No, no liquid nails...
I recommend using the stock bolts with new oem washers and moly oil mix on the threads and under the head of the bolts.
True the busa doesn't have these issues but the gsxr's do.
Jim, I did go back with the stock bolts at 52 ft. lbs. per factory spec. Now I need to make up my mind whether to go with the high volume oil pump gear and relief valve or just the gear... 
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted November 25, 2012 03:13 PM
Kawpower, yea its that bad... you can even crack the cylinders.
We use a blow-by volume meter on the dyno. realistically your talking about several hp power loss..... not the end of the world but when you are fighting for every hp its a problem.
oil consumption is higher in general on the bored zx14 engines. I'm sure some of you have noticed this if your running big bores and or strokers on the street.
But some of the oil consumption can be from the exhaust guides. These zx14 engines wear out factory exhaust guides all the time. I haven't figured out why but its very common for us to see the exhaust guides all shot on these heads when they come in for cnc porting.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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kawpower
Zone Head
Mr kawasaki 2 you!
Posts: 887
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posted November 26, 2012 06:17 AM
Thanx for the honesty Jim,
____________
Cecil County 2010 Motorcycle ET Champ. 9 Wins- 4 RUs .06zx14 turboed for 2012 .
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