Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 01:25 PM
quote:
.. think its that the air don't match their fuel map .. i've ran the same on hot days as cold but i had to tune for it.. i couldn't run the same map from oct. in aug..
No one has disputed that! It is a given that in order to run optimally with an open loop system, you would need a different map for every single condition possible (not practical). But the thing is, that holds true for a stock bike as well! It has nothing to do with a PC/Bazazz unit or whatever. You act like the stock bike is able to perfectly adjust for every single atmospheric condition, when in fact it cannot. And it can't when you put a PC on it either! Like I told you, on a modded bike the sensors are still operating just like they do in stock mode. The don't care if there is a PC connected or not. I don't know how else to put it to you, other than for someone else you trust more than me to tell you the same damn thing!
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smokinZX14
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Posts: 10197
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posted June 12, 2012 01:36 PM
 Edited By: smokinZX14 on 12 Jun 2012 21:38
quote:
quote:
When you modify a bike the stock sensors are working in the same fashion they always did. You have been given some bad info son.
no bad info from me .. i'm not the 1 riding around in the dark without a lamda reading on what my bike is doing ..by altered the fueling with the PCV its throwing those values all the time when the ecu is trying to correct from the info from the sensors.. (piggy back system) and lets not even talk about all the factory maps stored in a ECU for it to pick from .. do you really think it has just 6 maps or 1 map .. and from most broke down engines that where stock they run rich from what i seen.. lot of carbon built up ..
look you guys love your brocks maps .. but theres no way in hell it can work perfect from his shop at 300 feet in an air condition room to a 4000ft 105 degree day.. theres a reason why smokin parks his bike on hot days.. his runs can not set records ... even that jeffo guy would ask the person what area they live in to make a map for you ..
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/0910_crup_how_electronic_fuel_injection_works/viewall.html
Well you are wrong .. Mine ran fast when the air was cooler and ran fast when it was hot ..In fact my cooler air record of 8.49.9 i beat in 90 temps with a 8.49.7 .. I have not gone to the track in 4 weeks because it has rained out every damn time i wanted to go ..
By the way i don't park my bike on hot days ... Even sick i was at the figging track sweating my ass off ... Do i want to go kill myself in the heat ? Hell NO !! But i do it anyway even when the DR told me not to .. I'm in FL and your are in TX , you have no clue what i do or when i do it so stop telling people you do .. I know for a fact you don't have ESP ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 01:40 PM
quote:
quote:
.. think its that the air don't match their fuel map .. i've ran the same on hot days as cold but i had to tune for it.. i couldn't run the same map from oct. in aug..
I don't know how else to put it to you, other than for someone else you trust more than me to tell you the same damn thing!
DUDE YOUR THE 1 THAT DON'T FUKKING GET IT.. if you got a stock bike and it works fine( base starting point ) .. you then add a piggy back fuel controller its adding or taking away a set percentage of fuel all the time.. it is not taking into effect any weather conditions or ram air .. it is just throwing a number on top of what ever the ecu is adjusting too..
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 01:48 PM
quote:
Well you are wrong .. Mine ran fast when the air was cooler and ran fast when it was hot ..In fact my cooler air record of 8.49.9 i beat in 90 temps with a 8.49.7 .. I have not gone to the track in 4 weeks because it has rained out every damn time i wanted to go ..
By the way i don't park my bike on hot days ... Even sick i was at the figging track sweating my ass off ... Do i want to go kill myself in the heat ? Hell NO !! But i do it anyway even when the DR told me not to .. I'm in FL and your are in TX , you have no clue what i do or when i do it so stop telling people you do .. I know for a fact you don't have ESP ..
oh get off your attitude.. you modded your bike more since the cooler weather thus why the number fell ... you may have lost even more weight since then too ..
you haven't ran your bike in 4 weeks .or posted how great something works in a while .. i can tell people what i want based off that info right there hot shot.. i don't need to be in florida to see that ..
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smokinZX14
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posted June 12, 2012 01:51 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 12 Jun 2012 21:53
quote:
quote:
quote:
Guys like Smokin park the bike on a real hot day because there is no power to be had, not because their map is wrong. 
Shane
.. think its that the air don't match their fuel map .. i've ran the same on hot days as cold but i had to tune for it.. i couldn't run the same map from oct. in aug..
last month a well known racer had a zx14r at SAR with a brocks map .. wouldn't make a pass on it cause it was pouring black smoke out of the pipe and afraid he was gonna hurt it.. we should have filmed that for utube ...
I call BS on it was a map problem on his 14r. we have ran in 200 feet of air this year to last weekends 3500 feet and with Brocks maps the bike did not blow any smoke, this was on a Busa with a Brocks map. sure the bike slowed down a .10 in the 3500 feet but was no where close to hurting it's self.
I agree .. I run the same map year round .. mine in 90 temps does not black smoke ... I have not made a any changes to my map .. Cold or hot it stays the same .. I think what some guys are missing here is the new ZX14R runs a map that has a A/F or 13.4 to 13.6 unlike the old ZX14R that liked 12.9 to 13.0 .. The Bike like to be lean unlike the old bike .. It being leaner to start with the heat will not kill the hp as much as a fat map would ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 01:53 PM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 12 Jun 2012 21:56
WTF!! That's what i've been saying all along! Show me where the fuck I said a PC takes into effect weather conditions? I never did! I said the bikes sensors try the best they can to adjust for them! If you have added a pipe and it causes the bike to run lean at 4,000 rpms WOT, then you NEED to add a set percentage of fuel ALL OF THE TIME AT THAT RPM AND THROTTLE POSITION. The sensors will simply add/take away fuel on top of that to adjust for changing atmosphere. You are clueless! You can sit there with your fingers in your ears and head in the sand and tell yourself otherwise, but you're still WRONG!
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smokinZX14
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posted June 12, 2012 02:01 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 12 Jun 2012 22:04
quote:
WTF!! That's what i've been saying all along! Show me where the fuck I said a PC takes into effect weather conditions? I never did! I said the bikes sensors try the best they can to adjust for them! If you have added a pipe and it causes the bike to run lean at 4,000 rpms WOT, then you NEED to add a set percentage of fuel ALL OF THE TIME, AT THAT RPM AND THROTTLE POSITION. The sensors will simply add/take away fuel on top of that to adjust for changing atmosphere. You are clueless! You can sit there with your fingers in your ears and head in the sand and tell yourself otherwise, but you're still WRONG!
You aiming that at me ? Because i have said nothing to you about that at all ! .
By the way you are 100% right .. the P/C only does what you tell it to , no more no less .. The Factory ECU does make small changes for temps and Alt .. A zx14r sold in Donner pass 9000 feet get the same map sold in death valley that is below sea level ..So the ECU adjusts to that ... It may not be right on the money but it will run .. That why a p/c is needed to fine tune the system ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 02:11 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 22:13
quote:
WTF!! That's what i've been saying all along! Show me where the fuck I said a PC takes into effect weather conditions? I never did! I said the bikes sensors try the best they can to adjust for them! If you have added a pipe and it causes the bike to run lean at 4,000 rpms WOT, then you NEED to add a set percentage of fuel ALL OF THE TIME AT THAT RPM AND THROTTLE POSITION. The sensors will simply add/take away fuel on top of that to adjust for changing atmosphere. You are clueless! You can sit there with your fingers in your ears and head in the sand and tell yourself otherwise, but you're still WRONG!
hey get you a wego 3 or to that effect a pipe and pcv and a bike ..then got to the track at least twice a month and log your passes for a year .. you'll then see how wrong you are..
you can not leave 1 map in the bike and be perfect all year long..
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
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posted June 12, 2012 02:12 PM
quote:
quote:
Well you are wrong .. Mine ran fast when the air was cooler and ran fast when it was hot ..In fact my cooler air record of 8.49.9 i beat in 90 temps with a 8.49.7 .. I have not gone to the track in 4 weeks because it has rained out every damn time i wanted to go ..
By the way i don't park my bike on hot days ... Even sick i was at the figging track sweating my ass off ... Do i want to go kill myself in the heat ? Hell NO !! But i do it anyway even when the DR told me not to .. I'm in FL and your are in TX , you have no clue what i do or when i do it so stop telling people you do .. I know for a fact you don't have ESP ..
oh get off your attitude.. you modded your bike more since the cooler weather thus why the number fell ... you may have lost even more weight since then too ..
you haven't ran your bike in 4 weeks .or posted how great something works in a while .. i can tell people what i want based off that info right there hot shot.. i don't need to be in florida to see that ..
1bad i can't run the bike when it's raining ...So there is NOTHING to post ..You want me to tell you how i waxed it the other day ? The next track day i can make is 2 weeks away .. I'll have numbers good or bad after that ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 02:16 PM
quote:
..You want me to tell you how i waxed it the other day ? ..
hell yeah/
.. wax on.. wax off .. practice make perfect
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 02:20 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 22:38
quote:
Show me where the fuck I said a PC takes into effect weather conditions?
You are clueless! You can sit there with your fingers in your ears and head in the sand and tell yourself otherwise, but you're still WRONG!
quote:
I could pay around $1,000 for a stainless streetmeg, around $200 for the closeout PCIIIUSB, and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
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smokinZX14
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Posts: 10197
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posted June 12, 2012 02:21 PM
1bad i have not lost anymore weight , i can't put anymore back on but i have NOT lost any .. I'm at the DRs 2 to 3 times a week for tests and i'm sick of it .. On top of that i have been working 6 days a week at the shop .. I have little or no time to do anything muchless work on the bike ..The bike is on the trailer ready to go to the track but i can't race in the rain.. This is FL rainy season and we are 16 inches above normal for the year .. If i have an opening hot or not i'm going to the track.. So please stop giving me lip about not being at the track every week , i'm doing what i can with what i have to work with ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
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Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 02:33 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 22:34
quote:
1bad i have not lost anymore weight , i can't put anymore back on but i have NOT lost any .. I'm at the DRs 2 to 3 times a week for tests and i'm sick of it .. On top of that i have been working 6 days a week at the shop .. I have little or no time to do anything muchless work on the bike ..The bike is on the trailer ready to go to the track but i can't race in the rain.. This is FL rainy season and we are 16 inches above normal for the year .. If i have an opening hot or not i'm going to the track.. So please stop giving me lip about not being at the track every week , i'm doing what i can with what i have to work with ..
i do all of the above and then some .. but i'm at the track almost every weekend.. losing ,winning , pissed off, happy or what not ... i make no excuses unless its raining ... i don't like unplanned make up dates "rain check".. but being you are the track poster child of zx14.com" i think" you should be living on the track .. or making updates to why not ..
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smokinZX14
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posted June 12, 2012 02:46 PM
quote:
quote:
1bad i have not lost anymore weight , i can't put anymore back on but i have NOT lost any .. I'm at the DRs 2 to 3 times a week for tests and i'm sick of it .. On top of that i have been working 6 days a week at the shop .. I have little or no time to do anything muchless work on the bike ..The bike is on the trailer ready to go to the track but i can't race in the rain.. This is FL rainy season and we are 16 inches above normal for the year .. If i have an opening hot or not i'm going to the track.. So please stop giving me lip about not being at the track every week , i'm doing what i can with what i have to work with ..
i do all of the above and then some .. but i'm at the track almost every weekend.. losing ,winning , pissed off, happy or what not ... i make no excuses unless its raining ... i don't like unplanned make up dates "rain check".. but being you are the track poster child of zx14.com" i think" you should be living on the track .. or making updates to why not ..
"or making updates to why not "
Really 1bad ? you need me to tell you why i have not gone to the track ? I'm in and out of the DRs and Hospital weekly , My wife has been very sick and off work .. I don't want to post details so i don't .. But you want to rub my nose in it because i don't post about my ZX14R . You want to talk about it on the phone fine , but i'm not talking about it here ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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BLK ICE
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posted June 12, 2012 02:57 PM
Edited By: BLK ICE on 12 Jun 2012 23:28
'
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 03:16 PM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 12 Jun 2012 23:18
quote:
quote:
Show me where the fuck I said a PC takes into effect weather conditions?
You are clueless! You can sit there with your fingers in your ears and head in the sand and tell yourself otherwise, but you're still WRONG!
quote:
I could pay around $1,000 for a stainless streetmeg, around $200 for the closeout PCIIIUSB, and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
Yes, I was referring to the base tune. Apparently Muzzy's base maps are not even close to optimal. Like I've said, if the base tune is optimized, then even at varying altitudes, etc the basic air fuel ratio will be very damn close thanks to your bike's sensors. The way your bike runs in varying conditions is only as good as it's base tune.
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 03:55 PM
quote:
Really 1bad ? you need me to tell you why i have not gone to the track ? I'm in and out of the DRs and Hospital weekly , My wife has been very sick and off work .. I don't want to post details so i don't .. But you want to rub my nose in it because i don't post about my ZX14R . You want to talk about it on the phone fine , but i'm not talking about it here ..
had to go mow and weedeat before dark ...
you said its been raining for 4 weeks
your are the bar that everybody on this forum sets the rest of us too. .. if the rest of us do something its measure off your results 1 way or another .. and you MR. put yourself into those shoes .. so don't get pissed when your name and results are brought up..you posted them for the world to judge ..
and i'm sure if i search i can find several of your post stating its to hot to go to the track somewhere ... and your right and i agree ... but i still go
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 03:59 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 13 Jun 2012 00:00
quote:
quote:
quote:
Show me where the fuck I said a PC takes into effect weather conditions?
You are clueless! You can sit there with your fingers in your ears and head in the sand and tell yourself otherwise, but you're still WRONG!
quote:
I could pay around $1,000 for a stainless streetmeg, around $200 for the closeout PCIIIUSB, and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
Yes, I was referring to the base tune. Apparently Muzzy's base maps are not even close to optimal. Like I've said, if the base tune is optimized, then even at varying altitudes, etc the basic air fuel ratio will be very damn close thanks to your bike's sensors. The way your bike runs in varying conditions is only as good as it's base tune.
muzzy maps seemed to work good enough for me.. its a starting point ..its not perfect ..but maybe for the bike it was made for and for that day.. condition change all the time .. thats why i use a AF gauge and adjust to conditions .. and i've been on enough dyno's to know that they are not real world
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 04:08 PM
quote:
You aiming that at me ? Because i have said nothing to you about that at all ! .
By the way you are 100% right .. the P/C only does what you tell it to , no more no less .. The Factory ECU does make small changes for temps and Alt .. A zx14r sold in Donner pass 9000 feet get the same map sold in death valley that is below sea level ..So the ECU adjusts to that ... It may not be right on the money but it will run .. That why a p/c is needed to fine tune the system ..
No, that was aimed at 1bad....you and I appear to be in agreement.
1bad, I think the misunderstanding here is how you perceive an aftermarket fuel controller to work. The PC is not an "across the board" or an "all or none" deal. With the PC5 I was reading that there are a total of 24 (I think) different fuel tables one could make if he wanted. You can adjust very precise parameters. In the beginning there were very simple fuel controllers that allowed you to richen the whole map 5%, lean out the low end 5%, etc. That's not the case anymore. If you want to add just a touch of fuel at 6K rpm while at 20% throttle, then you can do just that. Not being condescending, but do you realize how the PC works? Do you know about the fuel tables with rows and columns, and numbers that the user puts in them?
If you hook up a PC and leave all zeroes in the fuel table, then that bike will operate just as if the PC3 is not even there! Guaranteed! If you put +5% more fuel in at idle with the PC, then ONLY the idle will be 5% richer. Every other throttle position at every other RPM will behave just like stock! And if you go to a very high elevation with this particular setup, then the sensors will lean out the factory map. The idle, although still leaned out by the sensors, will still be 5% richer than the rest of the map because your PC is telling it to. Does this make sense?
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 04:17 PM
quote:
i've been on enough dyno's to know that they are not real world
Precisely, and Brock does too. Thus, the "track" map he offers his customers. He will tell you straight up that his track map will make the bike's MPH better in the 1/4, even though it may wrongly appear to be down on HP while on a dyno with this map. Conversely, he can make a dyno queen map that will make impressive numbers on the dyno, but your MPH will suck ass at the track. If you are testing properly, then using MPH as a gauge of horsepower doesn't lie! Brock's maps are optimized for the real world.
Just out of curiosity, do you use the Innovate wide band o2 sensor in the link you put up earlier? What fuel controller do you use to make your changes?
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 04:47 PM
quote:
hey get you a wego 3 or to that effect a pipe and pcv and a bike ..then got to the track at least twice a month and log your passes for a year .. you'll then see how wrong you are..
you can not leave 1 map in the bike and be perfect all year long..
Once again, I'm not saying Brock's maps (or any map for that matter) will be perfect 100% of the time year round, but with the factory electronics compensating for weather, it will be VERY damn close since the map is so good from the get go.
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shiphteey
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posted June 12, 2012 05:40 PM
and then?
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 05:53 PM
quote:
and then?
lol .. well
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1badzx12r
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posted June 12, 2012 05:59 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 13 Jun 2012 02:17
quote:
Just out of curiosity, do you use the Innovate wide band o2 sensor in the link you put up earlier? What fuel controller do you use to make your changes?
yes i've used innovate products and the dynojet widebands..
next time i buy its gonna be a wego
i don't leave home without 1.. no matter how much you preach how great brocks map is ..its just a starting point ..
i'm sure those guys that pull their bikes into the trailer after every pass are just polishing the chains ..
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 07:28 PM
If you want every last fraction of a horsepower, then I say knock yourself out. If you feel the need to retune to get your a/f back to 13.2 : 1 because the barometric pressure put you down to 13.1 : 1 then by all means adjust it. Frankly I know that myself along with 99% of the people who frequent this board are not involved in the caliber of racing to appreciate such changes.
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