zxninja
Novice Class
Posts: 67
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posted June 11, 2012 09:20 PM
mine is stainless
  
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zxninja
Novice Class
Posts: 67
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posted June 11, 2012 09:22 PM
will install this weekend, I hope it goes smoothly
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted June 12, 2012 05:36 AM
quote:
when
mine was stock with about 300 miles on it, the hp was
181.26 and torque was 107.98. after installing the muzzy exhaust and a pc5 the hp was 191,09 and the torque was 111.pp with very nice fuel curve of around 13.2 across the board
, bike is very smooth and very responses,check my previous post on here to see printout of dyno runs.Burt
Can't remeber was that a muzzy map or custom tune?
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burton
Novice Class
Posts: 80
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posted June 12, 2012 07:47 AM
it was a muzzy map that was tweaked by the shop that does all my work on my bike,the tuner said the map that muzzy sent was very close the way it was and only had to do minor adjustments
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 12, 2012 08:10 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 12 Jun 2012 16:13
My biggest issue with the Muzzy, outside of the map/customer support, is the weight. They are solid, but heavy (I've had a few!). Muzzy map/customer support is not in the same ballpark as Brock's. But if you are a street rider, who does not care about the absolute best performance, you won't notice too much difference.
Shane
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 08:16 AM
quote:
My biggest issue with the Muzzy, outside of the map/customer support, is the weight. They are solid, but heavy (I've had a few!). Muzzy map/customer support is not in the same ballpark as Brock's. But if you are a street rider, who does not care about the absolute best performance, you won't notice too much difference.
Shane
So you have found that Muzzy's maps aren't as well "tweaked" out of the box as Brock's are?
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 12, 2012 08:23 AM
quote:
quote:
My biggest issue with the Muzzy, outside of the map/customer support, is the weight. They are solid, but heavy (I've had a few!). Muzzy map/customer support is not in the same ballpark as Brock's. But if you are a street rider, who does not care about the absolute best performance, you won't notice too much difference.
Shane
So you have found that Muzzy's maps aren't as well "tweaked" out of the box as Brock's are?
Yes, that is my finding. I have seen the Brock's mapping process firsthand, and it is extensive. Brock also typically provides race fuel maps which are made via the same extensive process.I don't think anyone puts the Muzzy in the same ballpark as far as mapping/customer support. Most people buy Muzzy because of the initial cost, from what i have seen.
I started out with an M14 on my '07 14, but once I switched to Brock's I never looked back. The support and quality are on another level. That being said, I have had several Muzzy pipes over the years., and I never had an equipment failure, and they all seemed "fast enough" at the time. 
Shane
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 08:46 AM
Shane,
I have agonized over the M14 vs. streetmeg decision and the way I see it is even with the initial cost savings of the Muzzy, in the end you will still come out having the same amount invested in either system
I could pay around 800 for an M14/M10 stainless, get a PC and then a custom map (since the supplied map sucks), and have around $1,250 total.
I could pay around $1,000 for a stainless streetmeg, around $200 for the closeout PCIIIUSB, and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
So with that being said, I think you just helped me convince myself to get the Brock's. 
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 10:02 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 18:05
quote:
and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
amazing how 1 map can run opticial in all bikes all over the world .. i think theres alot of people full of shit being my maps change from day to day ...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001QFH2RW/ref=asc_df_B001QFH2RW2052471?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B001QFH2RW&hvpos=1o1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5185374111533053331&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=
amazing what 173.00 can tell you
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted June 12, 2012 10:07 AM
quote:
quote:
and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
amazing how 1 map can run opticial in all bikes all over the world .. i think theres alot of people full of shit being my maps change from day to day ...
I feel Brocks maps will work fine in 98% of all conditions. there's not as much et in having a map custom tuned as some claim. maybe nos or turbo ya but not stock motors IMO.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 10:19 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 18:21
quote:
quote:
quote:
and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
amazing how 1 map can run opticial in all bikes all over the world .. i think theres alot of people full of shit being my maps change from day to day ...
I feel Brocks maps will work fine in 98% of all conditions. there's not as much et in having a map custom tuned as some claim. maybe nos or turbo ya but not stock motors IMO.
wouldn't that apply to any map then .. or does brock make special maps .. a closed loop system would be the shits .. every car has it and i think bmw's have it also.. maybe thats why the bmw's so fast
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 10:29 AM
quote:
quote:
and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
amazing how 1 map can run opticial in all bikes all over the world .. i think theres alot of people full of shit being my maps change from day to day ...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001QFH2RW/ref=asc_df_B001QFH2RW2052471?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B001QFH2RW&hvpos=1o1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5185374111533053331&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=
amazing what 173.00 can tell you
No map will run optimally ("optical"??) in all situations with an open loop system....a custom one or even the stock one is a compromise, unless you always ride it in the exact same conditions that the original map was made in. The air fuel gauge doesn't lie, as you have pointed out. I have seen several of those who had Brock's pipes with his corresponding map installed, and then had their bike thrown on the dyno. The air fuel graphs on the ones I have seen have been dead on with the target a/f that Brock maps them for.
Even if a certain map weren't optimal for your conditions, you aren't going to see hardly any difference in a normally aspirated application if one map has a 12.8 a/f and the other a 13.1.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 10:39 AM
quote:
No map will run optimally ("optical"??) even the stock one is a compromise,.
" i think" when anybody puts a PCV or whatever on the stock bike it corrupts the stock system. why you thing the stock system has an inlet air temp and a barometric pressure reading sensor to feed the ECU info.. that PCV SURE DON'T USE THAT INFO ..
But a closed loop system is the way to go ...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 10:43 AM
quote:
Even if a certain map weren't optimal for your conditions, you aren't going to see hardly any difference in a normally aspirated application if one map has a 12.8 a/f and the other a 13.1.
so a map made in 70 degrees at 300ft is gonna work really great at 105 degrees at 4000ft ..
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted June 12, 2012 10:58 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
and not have to worry about a custom tune because it will be optimized with the supplied map.
amazing how 1 map can run opticial in all bikes all over the world .. i think theres alot of people full of shit being my maps change from day to day ...
I feel Brocks maps will work fine in 98% of all conditions. there's not as much et in having a map custom tuned as some claim. maybe nos or turbo ya but not stock motors IMO.
wouldn't that apply to any map then .. or does brock make special maps .. a closed loop system would be the shits .. every car has it and i think bmw's have it also.. maybe thats why the bmw's so fast
Yes if everyone took as much time with there maps as Brock does. But I think we all know muzzys don't or atleast they never did before. But yes a closed loop would be great.
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 11:00 AM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 12 Jun 2012 19:07
1bad,
An open loop system, even though it may have temp and pressure sensors, still relies on the ECU pulling its values from a single fuel table. All the sensors do is change those values in the table by a predetermined amount based on varying atmospheric conditions. When engine mods are made, the original table is oftentimes no longer accurate. Say, for instance, you install a full exhaust which causes a very lean spike at 4K rpms. Just because you have an IAT sensor that (theoretically) say, richens the mixture by 5% when temps drop below 68 degrees, it does nothing specifically for your lean spike at 4K. A PC or Bazazz unit can though. You would use the PC to get the initial fuel table correct at the 4K rpm mark (the PC just piggybacks and modifies your ecu's original signal). Then, say you go ride in the mountains at 3,000 feet. The bike's various sensors will *roughly* change the fueling to help compensate. But it will never be perfect unless you introduce an o2 sensor into the equation.
As you said, the only "perfect" solution is a closed loop system. And even the worst map with an open loop fuel injection system is still leaps and bounds above the most well tuned jet kit we were used to in the 90's.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 11:16 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 19:18
quote:
1bad,
An open loop system, even though it may have temp and pressure sensors, still relies on the ECU pulling its values from a single fuel table. All the sensors do is change those values in the table by a predetermined amount based on varying atmospheric conditions. When engine mods are made, the original table is oftentimes no longer accurate. Say, for instance, you install a full exhaust which causes a very lean spike at 4K rpms. Just because you have an IAT sensor that (theoretically) say, richens the mixture by 5% when temps drop below 68 degrees, it does nothing specifically for your lean spike at 4K. A PC or Bazazz unit can though. You would use the PC to get the initial fuel table correct at the 4K rpm mark (the PC just piggybacks and modifies your ecu's original signal). Then, say you go ride in the mountains at 3,000 feet. The bike's various sensors will *roughly* change the fueling to help compensate. But it will never be perfect unless you introduce an o2 sensor into the equation.
As you said, the only "perfect" solution is a closed loop system. And even the worst map with an open loop fuel injection system is still leaps and bounds above the most well tuned jet kit we were used to in the 90's.
ok billy mays ..what i saying with a stock bike in stock form the open loop system is some what effective .. once you alter the bike its a whole new ball game and nothing works .. its crap .. and don't even get me started on them junky fukking carbs .. but a car can climb a mountain just fine these days ..
just add a A/F meter into a stock bike and watch the differance between it and a modded bike
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 11:21 AM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 12 Jun 2012 19:30
When you modify a bike the stock sensors are working in the same fashion they always did. Once you mod and then tune appropriately with PC, an a/f gauge will behave just like stock (assuming you wanted to tune for stock a/f ratios, which would be weird). You have been given some bad info son.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 11:43 AM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 19:59
quote:
When you modify a bike the stock sensors are working in the same fashion they always did. You have been given some bad info son.
no bad info from me .. i'm not the 1 riding around in the dark without a lamda reading on what my bike is doing ..by altered the fueling with the PCV its throwing those values all the time when the ecu is trying to correct from the info from the sensors.. (piggy back system) and lets not even talk about all the factory maps stored in a ECU for it to pick from .. do you really think it has just 6 maps or 1 map .. and from most broke down engines that where stock they run rich from what i seen.. lot of carbon built up ..
look you guys love your brocks maps .. but theres no way in hell it can work perfect from his shop at 300 feet in an air condition room to a 4000ft 105 degree day.. theres a reason why smokin parks his bike on hot days.. his runs can not set records ... even that jeffo guy would ask the person what area they live in to make a map for you ..
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/0910_crup_how_electronic_fuel_injection_works/viewall.html
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 12, 2012 12:21 PM
My .02 is this...
Even the Kawasaki map is pretty close, on stock bikes, throughout the country. You want to get the map as close as possible right out of the box. Sure, on a 105 degree day your bike could use an adjustment...but it won't make a ton of power anyway. Air density is too low. I have found that the Brock's maps are damn close, in a variety of conditions. In fact, the 14R is surprsingly very close even at 200 mph with ram air...Kawasaki's sensors do a pretty good job.
Guys like Smokin park the bike on a real hot day because there is no power to be had, not because their map is wrong. 
Shane
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 12, 2012 12:24 PM
On those real bad days, nitrous or a turbo can come in handy.
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted June 12, 2012 01:15 PM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 12 Jun 2012 21:18
1bad,
For the sake of simplicity, go find two identical bikes off the showroom floor. Take the stock bike, dyno it at WOT all the way to redline, and take note of the a/f versus rpm. Park the stock bike.
Now, get bike #2 and throw a pipe and PC on it. Put it on the dyno and run it to redline, and adjust the PC to make the fuel curve look just like the stock curve. Do all of this in the same conditions as when bike #1 was dynoed.
Now, take both bikes to 4,000 feet elevation, 120 degree ambient temps, or whatever you want. Dyno both bikes in those conditions at WOT, back to back. The air fuel curves should be pretty much identical.
You probably still won't believe me, but maybe if your buddy smokin or jethro chime in you might believe them.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 01:16 PM
quote:
Guys like Smokin park the bike on a real hot day because there is no power to be had, not because their map is wrong.
Shane
.. think its that the air don't match their fuel map .. i've ran the same on hot days as cold but i had to tune for it.. i couldn't run the same map from oct. in aug..
last month a well known racer had a zx14r at SAR with a brocks map .. wouldn't make a pass on it cause it was pouring black smoke out of the pipe and afraid he was gonna hurt it.. we should have filmed that for utube ...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted June 12, 2012 01:20 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 12 Jun 2012 21:22
quote:
1bad,
For the sake of simplicity, go find two identical bikes off the showroom floor. Take the stock bike, dyno it at WOT all the way to redline, and then look at the a/f versus rpm chart. Park the stock bike.
Now, get bike #2 and throw a pipe and PC on it. Put it on the dyno and run it to redline, and adjust the PC to make the fuel curve look just like the stock curve. Do all of this in close to the same conditions as when bike #1 was dynoed.
Now, take both bikes to 4,000 feet elevation, 120 degree ambient temps, or whatever you want. Dyno both bikes in those conditions, back to back. The air fuel curves should be pretty much identical.
you go do it .. i know what the out come is .. none these guys travel on this forum ..and very few race every weekend .. you ain't gonna teach me shit.. i'm out doing ..
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted June 12, 2012 01:24 PM
quote:
quote:
Guys like Smokin park the bike on a real hot day because there is no power to be had, not because their map is wrong.
Shane
.. think its that the air don't match their fuel map .. i've ran the same on hot days as cold but i had to tune for it.. i couldn't run the same map from oct. in aug..
last month a well known racer had a zx14r at SAR with a brocks map .. wouldn't make a pass on it cause it was pouring black smoke out of the pipe and afraid he was gonna hurt it.. we should have filmed that for utube ...
I call BS on it was a map problem on his 14r. we have ran in 200 feet of air this year to last weekends 3500 feet and with Brocks maps the bike did not blow any smoke, this was on a Busa with a Brocks map. sure the bike slowed down a .10 in the 3500 feet but was no where close to hurting it's self.
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