Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 07:06 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 15:08
quote:
$375 sounds fair, do you have any idea about adding a custom tune? Will you be able to add a PCV (when available), or are you locked into having him do it through the ECU?
Yes, you can still tune the bike with a PCV. I like tuning with the PC, and it is easy to use, and that is also the most commonly used format. Basically I am looking to use the ECU for rpm increase, limiter removal, perhaps a little timing and a quicker secondary plate opening rate. I didn't want to change too many things at once, that way I could keep track of the results/effects better.
Shane
  
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kawa74
Expert Class
Posts: 226
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posted January 02, 2012 07:48 AM
Look at how fat it got up top!! That is a power killer, and the power starts to taper right when the a/f goes fat....With proper tuning, what will happen?? We will soon find out!! This week I am going to install a 2011 10R Power Commander. And when weather permits I will be back on the dyno..
My ecu also has a little more timing advance now. I couldn't test it properly as the temps and humidity were not good...the bike was down 3 hp even where the timing changes were not in effect. Rest assured that I will get the bike on the dyno soon, and take full advantage of all mods.
That brings us to what will be part 2 and beyond. We are looking at properly testing the timing advance under similar conditions, opening the secondary flies sooner...and more.
Boy , do I feel STUPID,,,,,, I saw it a while back, pictures of your bike on the DYNO and the TREES and Grass and Sky and Sunlight, this must be OUTSIDE ??
..... " I couldn't test it properly as the TEMPS and HUMIDITY were not GOOD. ".." Shane "
This Dyno is OUTSIDE, ,,,Sucking in OUTSIDE air ( Temp, Humidity and DENSITY ) !!! All these can VARY !!!!
Cool dry air = GOOD numbers.....Warm ,humid air = BAD
A Dyno needs to have CONSTANT, REPEATABLE, CONDTIONS to get Relieble RESULTS ????
Dyno needs, NO MUST have Controled Air Temps and Humidity.... A Dyno ROOM ??
This is the ONLY way you can Compare CHANGES , Hour to Hour, Day to day , Week to Week, Month to Month etc,,, to measure IF you are Gaining or Losing HP ???
Comparing Apples to Apples ???
This applies to any Testing
Only thing Relieble or Repeatable in this test is Rpm , the rest are FLAWED results !!!
____________
"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted January 02, 2012 07:56 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 16:12
quote:
Only thing Relieble or Repeatable in this test is Rpm , the rest are FLAWED results !!!
The rpm extension and speed limiter removal are what I was trying to test, primarily. I was just making an observation that the way it was gettting fat on top definitely contributed to the hp nosing over. Yesterday I was not concerned about peak hp very much at all, but I did look at the power curve to see how a/f might be affecting it.
As you know, the dyno does attempt to compensate via correction factors for temps, barometric pressure, and humidity. However, the way that the particular bike responds to those changes can vary. Still, if the engine operating temps are comparable, I have found the local dyno's to read fairly consistently, even with radically different outside conditions. You will see that the corrected #'s were within 2 or 3 hp, while the uncorrected difference was in the 8-10 hp range.
The ideal would be to have 1 stock ecu and 1 modified ecu to test back-to-back, if making changes that affect hp. However, right now that is not a possiblity for me. I am doing the best I can with the tools at my disposal. 
Shane
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 08:05 AM
quote:
Hey Shane has Guhl said anything about having software to tune your bike yourself for a little more money. Because I am interested in this, but I don't do LSR and I won't hit 186 in the 1/4 in this lifetime and I have spray can compensate for the RPM bump. Would be awesome to not have to have a PCV and just have a modded ECU.
Don did mention that the project was still in the works. I don't know what is involved from a hardware or software standpoint. They could probably give you better info on that if you call them.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 08:22 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 16:30
Here you can see the different test conditions:
But with the correction factor, the hp is still within 2...even though the fatter a/f can potentially account for more than that. These are all things that you take into account when trying to interpret results. And at the end of the day, you need to log the bike at track and make adjustments as needed under racing conditions. For example, in LSR you might be at venue where it is 45 degrees in the morning and 85+ degrees in the afternoon...and that can keep you from getting that last little bit of performance, if you don't log the data.
On the street these concerns are much less. It is hard to feel or measure 2 or 3 hp difference under those conditions.
For those who might want a quick read on the commonly used correction factors, I google'd this:
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/ghtp_1109_fact_and_fiction_of_dyno_correction_real_wheel_horsepower/index.html
This is why, with properly calibrated machines, results from an outside dyno in Georgia can be roughly compared with an indoor dyno of the same design, in NY. 
Shane
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Rickey Gadson
Expert Class
Posts: 253
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posted January 02, 2012 09:29 AM
I will test a stock ECU against a Guhl reflashed ECU here shortle same day 5 min apart.
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Rickey Gadson
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biggmoinc
Zone Head
Posts: 747
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posted January 02, 2012 09:44 AM
Even though the bike fattens up like a bear for hybernation (excuse that) wouldnt it be still leaner than that with the real time ram air at that high rpm/speed to be, is it just the ecu is preparing it for the real world riding by going/showing that fat up top, hell of alot better that going leaner than 13.5 or 14 at that rpm right?
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07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
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Lacker 14
Novice Class
Posts: 94
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posted January 02, 2012 09:51 AM
You stole my thunder Biggmoinc
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 10:13 AM
With the data logger I tested the bike to 10920 rpm in third gear yesterday morning. The A/F data closely matched my first dyno pull yesterday, so at those speeds any a/f changes due to intake pressurization would be minimal.
Shane
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kawa74
Expert Class
Posts: 226
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posted January 02, 2012 10:16 AM
This is why, with properly calibrated machines, results from an outside dyno in Georgia can be roughly compared with an indoor dyno of the same design, in NY.
Shane
Glad you doing this , don't get me wrong , not comparing other Dyno's.
It's all about comparing Changes you make, good or bad .
You say it is only off 2 hp, timing might make only 1 hp+ or -- change , how do you know?? Pulling the Air filter might be only 2 , cam timing, compression, A/F mix, Headers removing Baffle, changes might give a plus or minus hp numbers TODAY
.
Next week comparsion might be give totally different numbers???,
Was it the GOOD air , or Bad air or Changes you make ???
If you going to Dyno outside in the elements please post , Temps, Humidity and BP
So we can compare Apples to Apples
Thanks for all you have done
____________
"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 10:24 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 19:03
quote:
This is why, with properly calibrated machines, results from an outside dyno in Georgia can be roughly compared with an indoor dyno of the same design, in NY.
Shane
Glad you doing this , don't get me wrong , not comparing other Dyno's.
It's all about comparing Changes you make, good or bad .
You say it is only off 2 hp, timing might make only 1 hp+ or -- change , how do you know?? Pulling the Air filter might be only 2 , cam timing, compression, A/F mix, Headers removing Baffle, changes might give a plus or minus hp numbers TODAY
.
Next week comparsion might be give totally different numbers???,
Was it the GOOD air , or Bad air or Changes you make ???
If you going to Dyno outside in the elements please post , Temps, Humidity and BP
So we can compare Apples to Apples
Thanks for all you have done
I pulled the air filter, and lost 3 hp on back-to-back pulls on the same dyno. The reason I can safely say that the timing changes did not kill the hp is that the bike lost equal hp across the board, in rpm ranges that were not affected by the altered timing map. And, as I say, I drew no hp conclusions from my testing yesterday. There was not time nor the resources to make it a focal point.
I have seen the bike lose 2-3 hp on coolant temp; that is an area that I am monitoring closely. I can't control the weather; I can only make my best judgements based on experience and the data that I get.
At some point you have to leave the dyno sheet at home, and take the bike to the track. Crunching numbers is great, but paper racing can be a slippery slope. What we can do is compare my results to those of others, and then we will have a much broader picture.
Shane
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biggmoinc
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posted January 02, 2012 10:32 AM
Edited By: biggmoinc on 2 Jan 2012 18:34
At some point you have to leave the dyno sheet at home, and take the bike to the track. Crunching numbers is great, but paper racing can be a slippery slope. What we can do is compare my results to those of others, and then we will have a much broader picture.
Shane
+1
____________
07 ZX14 bmc filter, muzzy m14, 16/44,66",auto shift, 6'3, 204lbs/1.54/3.99/6.03@120/7.8/9.32@147
biggmo@aol.com
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 10:39 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 18:55
As one final part of the discussion, here is the data, of stock exhaust vs Brock's CT Meg. Look at the climate conditions...these pulls were over a week apart:
This dyno is in a simple enclosed trailer. I have seen much greater climate fluctuations than the above, even with indoor setups. And again, that is what the correction factor is for, within reason. I look at all of this when I weigh the results. I have already spent hours reviewing the dyno pulls and data logging info from yesterday....and will spend more.
If anyone has spent a lot of time at the dyno, they know that even on back-to-back pulls it would not be unusual to see a change of a couple of hp. We have to look at the big picture, and the way the gains/losses trend. Right now the bike has about 160 miles on it, and 22 full and 5 partial dyno pulls. We are just scratching the surface, but off to a good start.
Shane
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CajunBoyz
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posted January 02, 2012 10:44 AM
Great write up.
____________
"Cajun Boyz with Bad Ass Toys"
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 10:48 AM
quote:
Great write up.
Thanks! There will be more coming, but I need to get the bike set up and ride it a bit.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 10:57 AM
quote:
I will test a stock ECU against a Guhl reflashed ECU here shortle same day 5 min apart.
Excellent!
Shane
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ZX14Mike
Zone Head
Posts: 891
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posted January 02, 2012 11:09 AM
quote:
I will test a stock ECU against a Guhl reflashed ECU here shortle same day 5 min apart.
Rickey what mods will be done to the ECU?...................I'm guessing flies opening earlier and extended revs?...............anything else?
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ZX14Mike
Zone Head
Posts: 891
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posted January 02, 2012 11:11 AM
Shane if the bike was running rich with the extended rev ECU do you think pulling the air filter could help the bike make more power at higher revs with the ECU mod?
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 11:14 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 19:17
quote:
Shane if the bike was running rich with the extended rev ECU do you think pulling the air filter could help the bike make more power at higher revs with the ECU mod?
No, I don't think so. I think there is something going on when you remove the filter...like turbulence or an airbox resonance issue. It did not look good when I removed the filter before. I will be installing a Power Commander very soon, and I will be doing some modified air filter testing. And I will probably try the no filter option again, and watch the a/f closely.
All of this is very new, so it will take time. But there are a bunch of us trying this or that, so things are looking good!
Shane
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justoyz2
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Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted January 02, 2012 11:16 AM
Shane, did Ghul mention any soft limiters installed in the ECU map?
____________
2012 zx14R-blue,2012 zx14R-black, 2014 zx14Trbo, 2011 zx10R, 2007 zx10 Turbo.....
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted January 02, 2012 11:21 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 19:29
quote:
Shane, did Ghul mention any soft limiters installed in the ECU map?
No. He did mention that there are two limiters, a fuel and an ignition cut...but they are very close together. Then there is a certain amount of "hystereis" (his word) before the system "restarts", an rpm drop before the system comes back on. The speed limiter actually starts at 183.xx but is not in full effect until 186.xx mph.
He can change the limiters (fuel vs ignition killl) to suit nitrous or turbo apps, among other things. I left my limiter arrangement stock for now. No plans for nitrous in the near future.
I am not much of an expert of this stuff, but Don seems to really know these things pretty well. I need to start taking notes when I talk to him!!
Shane
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justoyz2
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Justoyz Racing
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posted January 02, 2012 11:29 AM
Shane, did he mention anything about the timing retarding as with the 2011 zx10?
____________
2012 zx14R-blue,2012 zx14R-black, 2014 zx14Trbo, 2011 zx10R, 2007 zx10 Turbo.....
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted January 02, 2012 11:32 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2012 19:38
quote:
Shane, did he mention anything about the timing retarding as with the 2011 zx10?
As far as timing discussion, I recall it was limited to the fact that there was an unused timing map, which has some additional advance above 6k rpm. That is what he enabled on my ECU. He may had said more...but I didn't take notes.
This ECU is very new, and I am sure he is discovering new things daily. Whenever I hear of something new, I will let you guys know...or you can call them and get the latest.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2012 11:59 AM
quote:
Shane,
Great work! Don is the best in the business to work with for ECU mods and I won't work with anyone else.
Brock
Www.BrocksPerformance.com
We have had a very good experience with Racheal's Gen 1 ECU and my 14R ECU. I might be sending him a 3rd very shortly.
Shane
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted January 02, 2012 01:50 PM
I just locked in more dyno time for Friday....
Now I just need to get the Power Commander, install it, and pray that the weather holds. I hate taking 12 hrs of leave, but this stuff is important!! 
Shane
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