smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 21, 2011 09:34 PM
Things i have noticed on the ZX14R
The other day Dave came by my shop to check out my ZX14R and he had his gen 1 zx14 with him ... We lined them up side by side to get a good look .. I noticed the ram air on my Gen 2 looked smaller .. Sure as shit it is a half inch ( give or take a little ) smaller all the way around ..So i have to ask why ? Did kawi make it smaller to increase air speed into the intake a lower speed ? Or would it work better at a higher speed .. We will have to ask some of the LSR guys about this ..My guess it would work better at lower speeds ..Kawi said they made the ram air better , my question is how ?
Wee posted a picture of the exhaust port in his thread and the port is much bigger than the Gen 1 .. This port is meant to move a lot of air , i can't wait till someone pulls the TBs and we get a look at the new intake ports .. I hope Jim (CNC) get his hands on one and gets us some flow numbers Vs the Gen 1 head .. The flow numbers will tell us what is possible with this motor ..
I also looked at all the dyno charts that had A/F ratios listed and it seems they all run about 13.2 from 7000 to red line .. Those numbers are on the dyno without ram air so the engine is going to be much leaner at high speeds than shown on the dyno .. Is this why Shanes Bike lost HP with the air filter removed , bike went too lean and lost some power ? In the past with the Gen 1s the bikes were real fat on the top and all the good maps for the gen 1 had fuel removed from the top of the maps .. It looks like the gen 2 bikes are going to need fuel added to the top of the maps .. Good for us because more fuel that we can burn means more power for us.. It does look to me that Kawi did spend some extra time on the mapping unlike they did with the gen 1 .. But why did they go from very fat on the gen 1 to leaner on the gen 2 ?
I'm sure all this things will get an answer in time ..I have talked to a few tunners that feel this bike piped and tunned may see numbers as high as 210 to 215 STD to the tire .. Ricky has proved the bike is fast and it's only going to get faster once the tunners get there hands on them .. Is there untapped power in the ECU ? Are the flys holding the bike back like the gen 1 ? Wee pulled his flys and said it felt more powerfull , his dyno A/F chart didn't show it going crazy lean like the gen 1 did ... Time will tell if this is a must do mod like the gen 1s..
Right now i'm very happy with the items ( upgades ) that i have seen , this bike is a big leap from the gen 1s , that is saying alot becuase the gen 1 was and is still a great bike ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
  
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redbarron2006
Expert Class
Posts: 104
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posted December 21, 2011 10:30 PM
I am really curious about the secondarys. I LOVED wheni pulled them out of my 06,. Was Like I got a new bike.
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LeoVinceZX14
Expert Class
Thankfully...its paid for...
Posts: 386
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posted December 22, 2011 02:16 AM
Changes...
Smokin:
Along with your ram air and A/F observations, going to a 42 tooth sprocket with a distinctly stronger 1441 cc motor strikes me as another move to react to all the complaints with the gen 1 low-end throttle response especially the '06-'07 models. So we end up with a bike that likes...taller gearing to go faster (swb). Do you plan to try a 40 tooth before you extend your bike? Thanks.
Leo
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'12 14R SE
PC V
Custom map
BMC filter
Leo Vince 4-2-1 w/ carbon can
Sato frame sliders
Supersprox 42T
Cox radiator guard
DID 530 X-ring chain.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 22, 2011 04:24 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Dec 2011 12:26
Based on what I saw with the size of the air filter, and the changes at the front of the frame, it looks like the volume of the airbox may have seen some increase as well? With the inlets being larger, I would like to look at the size of the resonators, and area of the duct and inlet. I wasn't very impressed with the old setup, for LSR use at least.
Shane
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted December 22, 2011 05:27 AM
If the 'flys open wider earlier on the Gen 2 then the stock fuelling won't be as lean when the 'flys are removed. Unlike the Gen 1 which was way too lean and needed a remap.
In some ways it's ball-aching that you get your bikes in the USA months ahead of us in the UK. On the other hand you are providing the answers to so many of the questions we'd be asking and saving us heaps of time. Come the Spring................ 
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted December 22, 2011 06:35 AM
Lee it was great getting together the other night. I am home from surgery now and catching up. I loved the changes to the new 14 R and it was very interesting to have them side by side. I love my 2006 and might have to add to the stable. Doctor bills and college costs are prohibitive right now but I am sure in time something will break loose. Speaking of breaking loose did you get out Wednesday night?
____________
2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted December 22, 2011 07:42 AM
Also when Lee and I got together checking differences we talked about longer wheelbase/swingarm. The chainguard sticks out a lot more on my 2006. That would be because of the the longer arm on the 2012.
I perceived a very slightly more aggressive riding position on the 2012 vs the 2006. Now Lee does have his 14R lowered and it was very slight, but has anyone else noted this? For me the 2006 fit me perfectly. I just wondered if the difference was true or just perceived. This could affect my long term rideability. Who knows it could just be the seat but something felt different to my calibrated 2006 ZX-14 ass. Anyone else notice ergonomics changes? Probably hard to tell with all that HP!
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted December 22, 2011 08:04 AM
quote:
The other day Dave came by my shop to check out my ZX14R and he had his gen 1 zx14 with him ... We lined them up side by side to get a good look .. I noticed the ram air on my Gen 2 looked smaller .. Sure as shit it is a half inch ( give or take a little ) smaller all the way around ..So i have to ask why ? Did kawi make it smaller to increase air speed into the intake a lower speed ? Or would it work better at a higher speed .. We will have to ask some of the LSR guys about this ..My guess it would work better at lower speeds ..Kawi said they made the ram air better , my question is how ? ..
the air intake is way oversized ... I memory serves me correctly you only 2 ports that are 3/4" in diameter at 200 mph to feed the motor at 11000 rpm . the improvement that kawi made was probably in the piping between the inlet and the airbox.
quote:
Wee posted a picture of the exhaust port in his thread and the port is much bigger than the Gen 1 .. This port is meant to move a lot of air , i can't wait till someone pulls the TBs and we get a look at the new intake ports .. I hope Jim (CNC) get his hands on one and gets us some flow numbers Vs the Gen 1 head .. The flow numbers will tell us what is possible with this motor .. ..
you have to remember that the valve sizing did not change .... and Jim had to go to +2mm to get big flow numbers. So the flow may have improved, but it wont be equal to a stage 2 head
quote:
I also looked at all the dyno charts that had A/F ratios listed and it seems they all run about 13.2 from 7000 to red line .. Those numbers are on the dyno without ram air so the engine is going to be much leaner at high speeds than shown on the dyno .. Is this why Shanes Bike lost HP with the air filter removed , bike went too lean and lost some power ? In the past with the Gen 1s the bikes were real fat on the top and all the good maps for the gen 1 had fuel removed from the top of the maps .. It looks like the gen 2 bikes are going to need fuel added to the top of the maps .. Good for us because more fuel that we can burn means more power for us.. It does look to me that Kawi did spend some extra time on the mapping unlike they did with the gen 1 .. But why did they go from very fat on the gen 1 to leaner on the gen 2 ? ..
I cannot say certain. but I believe that the gen 1's were fat on top to prevent the catalytic converters from melting... not sure if better materials or designs are being used and I dont know if new emmisions play into . in the US emissions were only measured at cruising speeds.
Roy
quote:
I'm sure all this things will get an answer in time ..I have talked to a few tunners that feel this bike piped and tunned may see numbers as high as 210 to 215 STD to the tire .. Ricky has proved the bike is fast and it's only going to get faster once the tunners get there hands on them .. Is there untapped power in the ECU ? Are the flys holding the bike back like the gen 1 ? Wee pulled his flys and said it felt more powerfull , his dyno A/F chart didn't show it going crazy lean like the gen 1 did ... Time will tell if this is a must do mod like the gen 1s..
Right now i'm very happy with the items ( upgades ) that i have seen , this bike is a big leap from the gen 1s , that is saying alot becuase the gen 1 was and is still a great bike ..
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 22, 2011 08:24 AM
quote:
quote:
The other day Dave came by my shop to check out my ZX14R and he had his gen 1 zx14 with him ... We lined them up side by side to get a good look .. I noticed the ram air on my Gen 2 looked smaller .. Sure as shit it is a half inch ( give or take a little ) smaller all the way around ..So i have to ask why ? Did kawi make it smaller to increase air speed into the intake a lower speed ? Or would it work better at a higher speed .. We will have to ask some of the LSR guys about this ..My guess it would work better at lower speeds ..Kawi said they made the ram air better , my question is how ? ..
the air intake is way oversized ... I memory serves me correctly you only 2 ports that are 3/4" in diameter at 200 mph to feed the motor at 11000 rpm . the improvement that kawi made was probably in the piping between the inlet and the airbox.
quote:
Wee posted a picture of the exhaust port in his thread and the port is much bigger than the Gen 1 .. This port is meant to move a lot of air , i can't wait till someone pulls the TBs and we get a look at the new intake ports .. I hope Jim (CNC) get his hands on one and gets us some flow numbers Vs the Gen 1 head .. The flow numbers will tell us what is possible with this motor .. ..
you have to remember that the valve sizing did not change .... and Jim had to go to +2mm to get big flow numbers. So the flow may have improved, but it wont be equal to a stage 2 head
quote:
I also looked at all the dyno charts that had A/F ratios listed and it seems they all run about 13.2 from 7000 to red line .. Those numbers are on the dyno without ram air so the engine is going to be much leaner at high speeds than shown on the dyno .. Is this why Shanes Bike lost HP with the air filter removed , bike went too lean and lost some power ? In the past with the Gen 1s the bikes were real fat on the top and all the good maps for the gen 1 had fuel removed from the top of the maps .. It looks like the gen 2 bikes are going to need fuel added to the top of the maps .. Good for us because more fuel that we can burn means more power for us.. It does look to me that Kawi did spend some extra time on the mapping unlike they did with the gen 1 .. But why did they go from very fat on the gen 1 to leaner on the gen 2 ? ..
I cannot say certain. but I believe that the gen 1's were fat on top to prevent the catalytic converters from melting... not sure if better materials or designs are being used and I dont know if new emmisions play into . in the US emissions were only measured at cruising speeds.
Roy
quote:
I'm sure all this things will get an answer in time ..I have talked to a few tunners that feel this bike piped and tunned may see numbers as high as 210 to 215 STD to the tire .. Ricky has proved the bike is fast and it's only going to get faster once the tunners get there hands on them .. Is there untapped power in the ECU ? Are the flys holding the bike back like the gen 1 ? Wee pulled his flys and said it felt more powerfull , his dyno A/F chart didn't show it going crazy lean like the gen 1 did ... Time will tell if this is a must do mod like the gen 1s..
Right now i'm very happy with the items ( upgades ) that i have seen , this bike is a big leap from the gen 1s , that is saying alot becuase the gen 1 was and is still a great bike ..
Roy the air piping looks to be a carbon copy of the gen 1 .. It just has a smaller opening...
Valve size , well .. I have seen a hemi head with 225 intakes valves pick up flow with the same port by dropping the valve size to 220 and 219 .. Not saying that is the case with this new head .. But remember it is a new head .. Did you look at the exhaust port picture Wee posted ? I was shocked to see how much bigger it was than the Gen 1 head .. I really want to see the intake side ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 22, 2011 08:27 AM
quote:
Lee it was great getting together the other night. I am home from surgery now and catching up. I loved the changes to the new 14 R and it was very interesting to have them side by side. I love my 2006 and might have to add to the stable. Doctor bills and college costs are prohibitive right now but I am sure in time something will break loose. Speaking of breaking loose did you get out Wednesday night?
Dave glad you are home and feeling better .. I didn't go to QSL last night , i was busy pulling apart the zx14r getting it ready for the mods ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 22, 2011 08:29 AM
Roy you will get a good look at the bike when you get down here in Jan ..I'm sure you will like what you see ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 22, 2011 09:58 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Dec 2011 20:18
Lee, "ram air" can be kind of complicated (at least to me it is, lol)...but velocity, and the "weight" of the incoming air all play a part. Where the air is sped up and slowed down is critical. Then you have to factor in the resonant frequency of the box. Anyway, here is some basic info on airbox/intake design...I am sure you have read it, but some might not have:
This is text from an older book, but the basic principles still apply. The resonant frequency stuff is similar to what you work with when building audio speaker enclosures. Fun stuff!
Shane
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted December 23, 2011 05:53 AM
Lee, I should have a head and throttle bodies next week to evaluate. I'll know more after I digitize the ports and extract all the math. I will flow test it as well.
It is very true thou, larger valves are not always better or needed. The valve window area can be enlarged by either opening the valve more and/or using a larger valve. Even thou they both increase the available area for flow they do not produce the same flow curves.
A larger valve will flow more at low lifts as well as higher lifts but more lift will increase the flow only at higher lifts. The ports MCSA comes into play as does the overall port taper and velocity.
As much as I'd like to, I cant really go into the details here on how we design our ports, it would be like coke posting its recipe on the Internet. I,ll just say that there's a lot more than raw flow bench numbers to making hp.
A head that flows a lot of air wont necessarily make good hp, but a head that doesn't flow a lot of air most certainly will not make good hp.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KSPZ3
Expert Class
Posts: 334
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posted December 23, 2011 07:44 AM
Lee,
Do you know if an 06 Brock header willl fit the 2012. Also, will aftermarket wheels move to the new model without modification? How about seats, are they interchangable. From a previous post - I gather power commander for previous models will not work? Lowering links? I am trying to understand how much of the aftermarket mods can be moved to the new model.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 23, 2011 07:57 AM
Kevin, the '06 Header will fit...Lee has that style on his bike now. But is probably not the best choice, and Brock is working on a new design. But Lee's bike seems to make good power with it, and he can elaborate more on his setup.
The wheels should be a direct swap, as should the lowering links. Old Power Commander will not work.
Shane
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KSPZ3
Expert Class
Posts: 334
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posted December 23, 2011 08:02 AM
Seat?
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Lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted December 23, 2011 08:45 AM
quote:
Seat?
Read a few threads down, but yes the seat fits, but the new cowl leaves gaps around the old seat. as the new seat is wider.
____________
You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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