Shane661
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posted March 21, 2011 01:32 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 21 Mar 2011 21:33
- Competition CNC High Volume Oil Pump Gear -
I know that a few people have posted about oiling improvements lately. Well, I just got word from Jim at Competition CNC that he will be carrying a high volume oil pump gear for the ZX-14.
http://www.competitioncnc.com
This gear will increase volume by 9.2%. Cost is $115. This is heat-treated part that needs to pressed on. The high volume gears have been available for years on the Busa; glad to see this part come to the 14. I have ordered one for my stroker motor, and will post pics when it arrives. 
Shane
  
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wrongway
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posted March 21, 2011 02:17 PM
with the stock pump , it was on the bypass at 4500 rpm with the motor up to running temp. why do you think you need a higher volume pump? It seems like you will pump 9% more oil only to be bypassed at the pressure relief ... that sounds like a great way to give away some hp. The trend in drag cars has been to use small oil pumps or control oil flow to reduce volume.
unless you need more pressure at an 800 rpm idle , I cant see how that would useful.
Roy
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Shane661
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posted March 21, 2011 02:20 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 21 Mar 2011 22:35
quote:
with the stock pump , it was on the bypass at 4500 rpm with the motor up to running temp. why do you think you need a higher volume pump? It seems like you will pump 9% more oil only to be bypassed at the pressure relief ... that sounds like a great way to give away some hp. The trend in drag cars has been to use small oil pumps or control oil flow to reduce volume.
unless you need more pressure at an 800 rpm idle , I cant see how that would useful.
Roy
Roy...what makes you think that someone would only use the stock bypass/relief with this setup?
Pressure and volume are two different things....I am sure that you know this, being an engineer.
Shane
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wrongway
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posted March 21, 2011 03:01 PM
i dont think you would want to run with higher pressure .... that just adds load to the motor.
and it might be hard on the oil pump drive.
the point I was making was tha the stock pump has plenty of volume at riding rpm . I have only seen low pressure at low idle speeds, and you can just raise the idle speed to fix that. Having more volume just means that the pump will be on the bypass sooner.
now if you have really loose bearing clearances, or increase the squirters for the rods, or some thing else that will increase the volume , then you may need a higher volume pump. but that takes HP.
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Shane661
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posted March 21, 2011 03:05 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 21 Mar 2011 23:11
quote:
i dont think you would want to run with higher pressure .... that just adds load to the motor.
and it might be hard on the oil pump drive.
the point I was making was tha the stock pump has plenty of volume at riding rpm . I have only seen low pressure at low idle speeds, and you can just raise the idle speed to fix that. Having more volume just means that the pump will be on the bypass sooner.
now if you have really loose bearing clearances, or increase the squirters for the rods, or some thing else that will increase the volume , then you may need a higher volume pump. but that takes HP.
There are a variety of things you might do to the affect oiling system. Those include the higher volume gear, a different relief, case mods, different bearing clearances, and different oil weights.
"Riding RPM"??? What is that??
And again, pressure and volume are two different things. What are the purposes of the oiling system??
You know what takes the most HP of all?? When the motor blows up. 
Shane
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1badzx12r
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posted March 21, 2011 03:21 PM
quote:
why do you think you need a higher volume pump?
so you can have a spamwich..
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Shane661
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posted March 21, 2011 03:26 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 21 Mar 2011 23:28
quote:
quote:
why do you think you need a higher volume pump?
so you can have a spamwich..
Not hardly, lol. I am sure you know that high volume gears are commonly used on the Busa, along with the high pressure reliefs and case mods. Now we have all of those options on the 14. Adams did my cases, there is a 110 psi billet relief, and now this gear.
Obviously the stock oiling system was designed with stock motor output in mind. LSR is also a bit more demanding than drag racing in the sense that the bike can be held wide open for 1-5 miles at a time.
The 110 psi relief is actually lower than one that is commonly used on the Busa. Rick Stetson's relief for the Busa is 125 psi, and he also does the case mods for some of the fastest bikes out there...
Shane
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wrongway
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posted March 21, 2011 03:42 PM
what oil filters are you going to use ? most spin-on type filters are rated under 100 psi.
I may be just ignorant ,,, but why do you need more than 75 psi oil pressure ? I have never seen that on other types of race engines. And to reduce the drag from the oil pump I have seen pressures lower than that .
Roy
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Shane661
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posted March 21, 2011 03:45 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 21 Mar 2011 23:51
quote:
what oil filters are you going to use ? most spin-on type filters are rated under 100 psi.
I may be just ignorant ,,, but why do you need more than 75 psi oil pressure ? I have never seen that on other types of race engines. And to reduce the drag from the oil pump I have seen pressures lower than that .
Roy
Roy, I know that you love to argue with me. But I am done at this point. Take your arguments up with the rest of the world who use any combination of high volume gears, high pressure reliefs, case mods, loose bearing clearances, and such.
You are obviously the expert.
To the other "non-experts", there is a high volume gear available now if you are interested.
Shane
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dubious
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posted March 21, 2011 04:25 PM
I am much more interested in increasing oil pump flow for turbo and "loose connecting rod bearing clearances" , and not concerned about increased pressure.
____________
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destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Shane661
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posted March 21, 2011 04:27 PM
quote:
I am much more interested in increasing oil pump flow for turbo and "loose connecting rod bearing clearances" , and not concerned about increased pressure.
Hence the topic...high volume oil pump gear...
I was just stating that we now have all of the options available that the Busa does. Some builders prefer higher volume to higher pressure, some like both. Jones and Adams mod the cases as well. Now all of the options are there.
Shane
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dubious
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posted March 21, 2011 04:30 PM
Edited By: dubious on 22 Mar 2011 00:30
I was agreeing with you, relax shane.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Shane661
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posted March 21, 2011 04:43 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 22 Mar 2011 00:44
quote:
I was agreeing with you, relax shane.
I am agreeing with you agreeing with me.
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BLK ICE
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posted March 21, 2011 05:49 PM
I have raised my pressure, but now I am concerned about the bottom end starving due to running a OSR pan. Will this pump gear allow me to keep my raised pressure and circulate the oil quicker form top to bottom?
____________
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gilberjj
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posted March 21, 2011 06:14 PM
quote:
I have raised my pressure, but now I am concerned about the bottom end starving due to running a OSR pan. Will this pump gear allow me to keep my raised pressure and circulate the oil quicker form top to bottom?
I would think that this would require MORE oil, not less. It's increasing the volume of oil going into the oil system, but it doesn't increase drainage back into the oil pan.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 22, 2011 06:50 AM
basically a stock engine doesn't need the gear. But when you open up the bearing clearances you flow more oil to cool the rods and crank and the pressure curve drops.
The added volume will restore the lost oil pressure on a race engine where the flow is higher.
With 15 or 16 to 1 compression and .0024" rod bearing clearance you need to bring up the pressure curve.
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Y2KZX12R
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wrongway
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posted March 22, 2011 10:36 AM
Jim , do you also recommend increasing the bypass pressure ?
or just increase in volume
Roy
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 22, 2011 12:12 PM
On a stroker motor the rod angle is more extreme and the bearings are under more load so higher peak pressure would benefit.
Also on very high compression ratio engines the rod bearings are under more load so more peak pressure would be good.
But it does cost hp to produce that added pressure. but the trade off for a few hp vs engine longevity is worth it in my book.
The pressure will be increased at any given rpm below 75 psi with the gear even with the stock 75psi relief valve. But the relief valve is going to blow off any volume above 75psi.
Now for you math junkies.... the old pump gear had 35 teeth and the new pump gear has 32 teeth. The pump drive gear on the basket has 34 teeth. The clutch basket has 94 teeth and the crank has 61 teeth. The pump lobe is 3.5cc and there are 6 lobes of volume per pump revolution. thats 21cc per rev of the pump.
So at 1000 rpm the stock gear puts out 13.230 L/M and the new gear puts out 14.469 L/M
A 1.2 L/M increase.
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Hellmutt
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posted March 22, 2011 01:35 PM
DAMN!! You're better than Bill Nigh the science guy!
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wrongway
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posted March 22, 2011 03:04 PM
quote:
So at 1000 rpm the stock gear puts out 13.230 L/M and the new gear puts out 14.469 L/M
A 1.2 L/M increase.
it is easier to set the idle at 1500 rpm and get a 50% increase :-)
Roy
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gilberjj
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posted March 22, 2011 03:17 PM
quote:
quote:
So at 1000 rpm the stock gear puts out 13.230 L/M and the new gear puts out 14.469 L/M
A 1.2 L/M increase.
it is easier to set the idle at 1500 rpm and get a 50% increase :-)
Roy
And no one is telling you to buy the pump Roy. 
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wrongway
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posted March 22, 2011 03:28 PM
quote:
And no one is telling you to buy the pump Roy.
I guess I deserve that ....
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BLK ICE
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posted March 22, 2011 05:33 PM
"it is easier to set the idle at 1500 rpm and get a 50% increase :-)
Roy "
How does this work?
____________
Fastest Stock Motor, Stock Bodywork, Hand Clutch, N/A Super Heavy Hitter on the Planet!
Fastest Stock Motor, Stock Bodywork, Hand Clutch, Nitrous Super Heavy Hitter on the Planet!
Bikeland 1/8 mile 5 sec.N/A Stock Motor Club Member.
Repersenting: BLACK ICE PERFORMANCE and NO QUARTER MOTORSPORTS
Nitrous and Tires Sponsored by: Custom Specialties Cycles
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wrongway
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posted March 22, 2011 06:00 PM
quote:
"it is easier to set the idle at 1500 rpm and get a 50% increase :-)
Roy "
How does this work?
your motor has plenty of little oil leaks ( around bearings , into the clutch, cams , etc) . the amount of oil pressure you have depends on how much oil the pump is moving compared to the loss. As engine rpm increases ,the oil pump output increases, but the loss doesnt increase as much. Oil pressure should increases with rpm until it reaches the pressure of the bypass spring, where it can bypass keeping the oil pressure constant ( = to the bypass spring)
It is easy to connect a mechanical oil pressure gauge to you motor and measure the oil pressure when the motor is up to temp. then increase the idle speed and see the pressure rise. It will continue to rise with rpm until the bypass opens.
To Jims point ,,, if you have enough bearing clearance that you do not have enough pressure at idle , you can use a higher volume pump to raise the pressure. Or just raise the idle to get the pressure you need.
hope that helps. I am sure someone will corerect me if I am not stating this correctly.
Roy
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1badzx12r
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posted March 22, 2011 06:18 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 23 Mar 2011 02:19
quote:
.
With 15 or 16 to 1 compression and .0024" rod bearing clearance you need to bring up the pressure curve.
is that for cushing or cooling .
i don't even want to know what my stock motor compression ratio is under 10lbs of boost @11k rpm .. i'm scared to hear it ..
____________
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