dubious
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posted March 10, 2010 06:49 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 11 Mar 2010 02:52
Turbo pistons-MTC vs JE vs stock, with pics!
Turbo piston pics vs stock:
Underside box designs, and oil scavenge ports
MTC
JE
Stock
MTC left, JE right
stock
MTC valve reliefs
JE
stock
MTC
JE
Stock
Oil rings
Stock and JE right, MTC on left
Compression rings
Stock and JE right, MTC on left
Things to Note,
JE has superior finnish machining everywhere especially on the dome, and smooth reliefs
MTC has sharp edges that require extra work to prep safely , the sharp edges will begin to burn, and then its a hot spot that will propogate if not removed. Looks like tool speed was too fast, or worn out tool.
Stock cast has by far the least ring land above top ring at the valve reliefs.
The stock oil scavenging ports are so small I have to think it doesn't scavenge! look at the needle holes!
MTC uses big rings, MASSIVE rings that should handle alot more abuse than standard rings, and has superior oil scavenging designsin piston, oil ring and wrist pin oiling.
MTC has massive boxed section around the wrist pin, and thickest dome.
MTC has the longest piston skirts for piston stability.
MTC comes with heavier tool steel pins
MTC had tighter amnufacturing tolerances than my JE pistons did.
stock piston with pin, no rings= 322gr
je piston with pin, no rings= 352 gr
MTC piston with pin, no rings= 364 gr
JE piston, no pin, no rings=263 gr
MTC piston no pin, no rings=253 gr
Yes MTC is heavier, but piston is not a place to cut weight or corners IMO.
Should note that the JE pistons had to have the pin bores machined, as they were so tight the pins couldn't be PUSHED in, never mind sliding in.
They only had about .002" instead of .004" clearance and my engine machinist said they would have seized in the pin bore.
I really don't think there is such a thing as a "DROP IN" piston.
Just too many variables to check and then check again and then again.
The pro seal rings I got from MTC did not fit their piston ring grooves properly either.... too tight, and so I went with their standard ring.
Each has their faults and will require attention.
The MTC pistons come with pins and rings, wheras the JE pistons no rings.
MTC Pistons= $550
CP pistons= $850 (quoted) + $200 rings= $1050
JE pistons= $700 + $200 for rings= $900
hmmm.... I will let everyone conclude for themselves.
I am not biased, just providing my experience.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
  
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1badzx12r
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posted March 10, 2010 07:02 PM
MTC uses big rings, MASSIVE rings that should handle alot more abuse than standard rings, and has superior oil scavenging designsin piston, oil ring and wrist pin oiling.
MTC has massive boxed section around the wrist pin, and thickest dome.
MTC has the longest piston skirts for piston stability.
MTC comes with heavier tool steel pins
MTC had tighter amnufacturing tolerances than my JE pistons did.
yeap but they are junk .. warp and distorted from 7lbs ..
____________
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dubious
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posted March 10, 2010 07:08 PM
Well I guess i will find out.
These are spec'd for turbo, 10.5:1 compression. -2mm rods, +3mm compression height.
I would have to guess the nitrous pistons aren't designed to see continuous nitrous use, or continuous boost, wheras the turbo will see the HP much more often?
These are the same pistons MR turbo used on the XXX chrome zx14, for run after run of 430 HP texas mile runs back in 2007. Seemed to hold up...
Don't know what to tell ya buddy.
Good luck with your next endeavor.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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dubious
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posted March 10, 2010 07:09 PM
oh, and my JE wrist pins would have seized,= broken rod if I had "dropped them in"
I really don't think there is such a thing as a "DROP IN" piston.
Just too many variables to check and then check again and then again.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted March 10, 2010 07:12 PM
Good write there Lyle !
I've run the MTC pistons in my last 2 turbo bikes (excluding the 14) with zero issues.
Lyle and I had a set of custom JE pistons made but I ended up selling my bike
prior to installing em !
Bob
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Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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1badzx12r
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posted March 10, 2010 07:19 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 11 Mar 2010 03:23
quote:
These are the same pistons MR turbo used on the XXX chrome zx14, for run after run of 430 HP texas mile runs back in 2007. Seemed to hold up...
.
they didn't run 430 hp on continuous runs .. for a whole day and a half stockers were out running it
and were is this bike now 3 years later ..
i can tell you every mr turbo zx14 built went boom in this area ..
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dubious
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posted March 10, 2010 07:23 PM
Edited By: dubious on 11 Mar 2010 03:27
They all blow eventually...., or just burn out, or sit in the corner of a garage.
I don't think your issues will be any different with a busa, if you run that compression.
But you both have alot more experience with turbo bikes than i do
hey thanks Bob!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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biker
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posted March 10, 2010 10:42 PM
GOOD INFO dubious....Thanx
____________
SEIZED...REBUILDING HOT ROD TIME
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JDC
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posted March 11, 2010 08:39 AM
Lyle,
Why change from JE to this new MTC setup?
and what eventual HP are you building for and use?
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dubious
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posted March 11, 2010 08:50 AM
I wanted to run the proseal rings, but only MTC accepts rings that size, then they didn't fit anyway.
Unless the metallurgy is weaker them JE, MTC are a better design if look close to the pics I put up and read it closer you will see the differences.
HP? well starting at 5 psi, and working my up safely way until the tire, or motor can't take anymore LOL
After all the time, money, and research it better be the tire.... first.
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destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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1badzx12r
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posted March 11, 2010 02:15 PM
quote:
.
Unless the metallurgy is weaker
.
warped and distorted in 10 passes ..
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JDC
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posted March 11, 2010 02:27 PM
quote:
After all the time, money, and research it better be the tire.... first.
LOL.
Best wishes on your adventure. Seems like you have put an immense amount of time, $ and meticulous research into your work.
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1badzx12r
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posted March 16, 2010 12:21 PM
no dub it be the pistons ..the space betweem the oil ring and #2 ring will warp and distort ..
you can see from the pics how the MTC junk has the thinnest wall in that area between rings
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dubious
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posted March 16, 2010 03:57 PM
Robert, did they collapse right above the wrist pin, or below the valves.
It sounds like the dome came down on the wrist pins, and the result was collapsed 2nd compression and oil ring grooves?
I lost your number. Call me if you still have mine?
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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1badzx12r
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posted March 16, 2010 05:51 PM
my piston looks just like your piston ..oil ring right above the wrist pin . then 2nd ring maybe a 1/6 of an inch of wall (ring land) then top ring ....top ring made it ok ..its from there down thats shit .. i c if i got your number
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1badzx12r
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posted March 16, 2010 05:52 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 17 Mar 2010 01:53
i c if i got your number ..i'll take some pics and email you also ..
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gilberjj
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posted March 27, 2010 10:18 AM
Check out this thread...... kinda interesting. In the future, I'm looking into putting higher compression pistons in my bike, and the mtc's are very tempting, especially the price (comparatively).
http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=68661F7B-D56B-84E2-1FB871B2AC5A57EA
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LeonidasZX14
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posted March 27, 2010 10:28 AM
I just don't understand how putting the stock pistons back in and taking off the turbo proves anything about MTC's pistons. Of course a stock motor 14 with OE pistons is going to run fine. I think the turbo map or wrong pistons or something along those lines was the problem and not the pistons. It is kind of weird that all 4 pistons collapsed in the same spot IMO as well. There was a guy at the track last night that just turboed his bike never been on a dyno, no boost control and he made passes with a guess at the A/F ratio. That is how shit happens.
____________
09' ZX14
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gilberjj
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posted March 27, 2010 10:41 AM
quote:
I just don't understand how putting the stock pistons back in and taking off the turbo proves anything about MTC's pistons. Of course a stock motor 14 with OE pistons is going to run fine. I think the turbo map or wrong pistons or something along those lines was the problem and not the pistons. It is kind of weird that all 4 pistons collapsed in the same spot IMO as well. There was a guy at the track last night that just turboed his bike never been on a dyno, no boost control and he made passes with a guess at the A/F ratio. That is how shit happens.
That's what I was guessing to........ He's blaming everything on MTC. This is also coming from the same guy that says full exhausts don't offer any more power then the stock exhaust. 
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eklipse636
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posted March 27, 2010 11:35 AM
quote:
quote:
I just don't understand how putting the stock pistons back in and taking off the turbo proves anything about MTC's pistons. Of course a stock motor 14 with OE pistons is going to run fine. I think the turbo map or wrong pistons or something along those lines was the problem and not the pistons. It is kind of weird that all 4 pistons collapsed in the same spot IMO as well. There was a guy at the track last night that just turboed his bike never been on a dyno, no boost control and he made passes with a guess at the A/F ratio. That is how shit happens.
That's what I was guessing to........ He's blaming everything on MTC. This is also coming from the same guy that says full exhausts don't offer any more power then the stock exhaust.
same guy that says a shinko u/s hooks as good as a power one...
Is all this a coincidence???
____________
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8.89 mph 151.32
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1badzx12r
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posted March 27, 2010 06:30 PM
quote:
Check out this thread...... kinda interesting. In the future, I'm looking into putting higher compression pistons in my bike, and the mtc's are very tempting, especially the price (comparatively).
http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=68661F7B-D56B-84E2-1FB871B2AC5A57EA
and you should .buy them now don't wait get them today ..or are you to poor or broke to buy them .. whats the hold up .. don't talk about it shit or get off the pot
____________
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1badzx12r
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posted March 27, 2010 06:44 PM
quote:
I just don't understand how putting the stock pistons back in and taking off the turbo proves anything about MTC's pistons. Of course a stock motor 14 with OE pistons is going to run fine. I think the turbo map or wrong pistons or something along those lines was the problem and not the pistons. It is kind of weird that all 4 pistons collapsed in the same spot IMO as well. There was a guy at the track last night that just turboed his bike never been on a dyno, no boost control and he made passes with a guess at the A/F ratio. That is how shit happens.
well dummies . let me spell it out for you ...i know what stock can do and what they can take before they fry.. the mtc pistons was a replacement for stock ( upgrade )which was recommended by MTC ..THEY FAILED with less boost than what stockers had been applied too.. and i've got more dyno time and custom maps than you have been down a track .. i've also done the built engine shitt with the turbo tuned and installed by the designer .. failed too.. i also run a WIDEBAND COMMANDER you know that it datalogs A/F'S .
NOW WHY DON'T YOU GO BUY A TURBO AND INSTALL IT AND THEN TELL ME HOW TO DO IT .. instead of typing how or what you heard at the track.
but you 4 think yall know it all ya'll never installed shit on your bikes just been nut swingers of guys that have ... get out front be fore runners not forskins
____________
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1badzx12r
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posted March 27, 2010 06:49 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
.
same guy that says a shinko u/s hooks as good as a power one...
Is all this a coincidence???
you can't even get this right
no i said it hooks just as good. your the idiot that stated a michelin hooks 10x better than a 003 usoft
____________
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LeonidasZX14
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posted March 27, 2010 06:51 PM
I know I have made more passes than your last set of pistons did................LOL
____________
09' ZX14
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1badzx12r
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posted March 27, 2010 07:05 PM
quote:
I know I have made more passes than your last set of pistons did................LOL
i agree.. but i bet i made more passes on stock pistons with a turbo than you made on your zx14 since you owned it ..
and i know i got more miles than you'll see in a lifetime ..
____________
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