laverda1200
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posted December 29, 2009 09:01 PM
Ignition timing and mapping??
Hi all
no information in the Kawasaki ZX 14 factory manual about ignition timing and map, other than cryptic comment.... "Ignition timing - from 10 degrees BTDC @1,100 rpm"
I see that Muzzy's sells an adjustable ignition rotor, and read on various internet forums that supposedly a 4 degree timing change using the adjustable ignition rotor is the hot setup......but am not clear if that is 4 degrees MORE advance, or 4 degrees LESS advance
I am not keen to just shift the entire ignition timing map 4 degrees, or any amount, when I don't even know what the ignition map looks like, when it advances, or how far it advances.
just guessing based on past experience with other motors, but maybe 10 degrees BTDC at idle, shifting to maybe 30, or 30 + degrees BTDC by maybe 4,000 pm, based on the inlet cam spec that shows the inlet valve opening at 41 degrees BTDC. Problem is that I am just guessing about stock ignition timing. It was tough enough establishing actual TDC with a piston stop and degree wheel to then index the cam timing, and if there are ignition timing advance marks anywhere (other than TDC) I am not seeing them......
so, does anyone have access to whatever a stock igntion map looks like? What is maximum stock advance, and at what rpm does the ignition reach full advance?
I am hoping to run the 08 ZX 14 on the salt at Bonneveille August 2010, and am just carefully dialing it in, no major changes, I have de-activated the exhaust fresh air injection system, installed a Tsukigi Racing 4into 1 pipe, Power Commander V, a lock up clutch, I have just finished "indexing" the inlet and exhaust cams to stock spec, now I want to clarify ignition timing and mapping, then vacuum synchronize the injector bodies, then will run the bike on an eddy current dyno to dial in fuel mapping....
so, the missing information is ignition timing and ignition mapping, can anyone help me out? As Power Commanbder does not appear to have an ignition module for the PC V, what are people using to build and adjust ignition mapping? Thanks in advance.
Paul
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laverda1200
  
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johnbull
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posted December 30, 2009 01:46 AM
Paul, I basically have the same problem as you since dynojet have not yet releasd the ignition module for the PCV which I am using. (re your question on the muzzys adjustable rotor, 4 degrees of advance is what everyone talks about, the only problem I see is that you're advancing throuhout the whole range)
I remember that somewhere on this forum within the last six months someone had posted the full ignition timing table from the stock ECU. I spent hours searching for it a couple of days ago on here but no luck.
Can anybody on here remember where it was and post the link to the thread???
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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KZScott
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posted December 30, 2009 04:29 AM
this is the oem timing map from a zx12r. i would guess the zx14 would be similar, but thats a guess at best
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted December 30, 2009 06:23 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 30 Dec 2009 14:25
Get in touch with Ridgeracer, he knows the details.
Also, read the linked information in this thread (on psychobike):
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=49177&pagenumber=1
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted December 30, 2009 09:20 AM
talk to northernkaw. He uses the msd sb6. He was saying u can do all kinds of things when it comes to the ignition mapping. He can let u know. It plugs into the 14 harness.
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laverda1200
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posted December 30, 2009 08:52 PM
thanks guys, and thatnks KZScott for the ZX 12 OEM ignition timing map....
is the scale across the top of the map percentage of throttle opening, or...??
I don't know what the intake valve opening timing is on a ZX 12, but I was startled, to say the least, at the timing advance jumping to almost 40 degrees (39.9) BTDC at 6,000 rpm at small throttle opening - unbelievable.
at 100% open throttle, the map is pretty simple, failry staright "curve" flat from roughly 20 degrees at 1,000 rpm to 33.6 degrees at 11,600 rpm, with a brief bump to roughly 35 degrees for 2,000 rpm in the midrange, between 3,600 rpm and 5,600 rpm.
there is a lot here that I don't understand, yet. I have looked at an MSD SB6 programable ignition unit, it alters the stock oem map by advancing or retarding from stock mapping, but as I still don't yet know what the stock ignition mapping, I would be wasting my money on an MSD SB6 as yet....
Paul
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laverda1200
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johnbull
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posted December 31, 2009 12:25 AM
Paul, what you need is an ignition map like the one above but of the ZX14, so do I.
I know there was one on here somewhere recently but I just cant find it.
Anybody remember which thread it was in???????????
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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JDC
Zone Head
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posted December 31, 2009 11:53 AM
Edited By: JDC on 31 Dec 2009 20:47
quote:
Hi all
I see that Muzzy's sells an adjustable ignition rotor, and read on various internet forums that supposedly a 4 degree timing change using the adjustable ignition rotor is the hot setup......but am not clear if that is 4 degrees MORE advance, or 4 degrees LESS advance
Paul
Here is my experience with the Muzzy plate, with Yoshi full system, PC III, BMC race filter on otherwise OEM bike. These dyno tunes were done to check HP/TQ/TTD advantages of flies out, flies in, each with Muzzy plate set to 4 deg advance. Bike was tuned for best TTD for each 'setting', rather than a set AFR.
Dark blue is flies out, Muzzy at 0 (stock timing)
Lt blue is flies out, Muzzy at 4 deg adv, which showed a few HP/TQ loss. I was very surprised at that.
Red is flies in, Muzzy 0
I ended up choosing to run flies in and stock timing. Flies in because the feel for the throttle, for me in curves 1st and 2nd gears was very twitchly - lost it's smoothiness/fine control.
I'd suspect others may get different results.
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laverda1200
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posted December 31, 2009 01:03 PM
Hi JDC
very very useful, thanks for the dyno charts.
I have an 08 ZX 14 SE. I tried it with flies out, then put the flies back in. I suspect flies out is more lilely to benefit an 06/07 where the butterflies don't open until much later than the 08/09/and likely 2010.
Looking at your dyno chart, the stock ignition map looks like it runs pretty well, and your dyno numbers look very realistic.
Looking at the ZX 10 ignition map posted by KZScott earlier in this thread, if the ZX 14 ignition map turns out to look anything similar, I can't see a crude 4 degree timing shift of the entire map necessarily being a good thing, particularly where I am still ignorant of what the actual ZX 14 timing map actually is.
I don't have the skills necessary to get at the stock ignition map from an ECU, here's hoping that someone with those skillls accomplishes the task and sells their knowledge and services, I would be a very eager and happy customer.....
as I can't get into the ECU to get at ignition mapping or fuel mapping or top speed limiter, I am left with the relatively crude aftermarket alternatives.
I am rejecting the Muzzt adjustable ignition advancer, I don't want to shift an unknown quantity 4 degrees or any amount. The MSD SB6 looks like a viable option to build new ignition maps for the ZX 14 with if someone had a ton a dyno time available to them, but I don't have those kinds of resources available to me.
For fuel map control, the relatively inexpensive aftermarket alternative seems to be the Power Commander, but it just allows the unknown base ECU map to be altered by percentages. Crude, but relatively effective when combined with an exhaust gas sniffer and a dyno. I bought a PC V and an autotuner, then came to the conclusion that using an autotuner to tune to a particular AFR ratio doesn't seem to make sense, as how do you figure out what AFR makes best power.....? Also, I am not convinced that the Bosch wide band sensor reacts all that quickly, or that my local dyno operator even has a clue, unfortunately.
I disabled the system that puts fresh air into the exhaust ahead of the cats, so that I could try and get the most accurate reading possible from the Bosch wide band sensor for the autotuner, and I first removed the cat from the 08 header, leaving in the cats in each muffler. Then I added Yosh R77 slip ons onto the gutted stock 08 header, mostly just to get rid of the cats in both stock mufflers. On the dyno getting rid of the three cats and adding slip ons didn't make much of a difference from stock. Then I pulled the entire 4 into 2 ehaust exhaust and replaced it with a Tsukigi Racing full system, with single silencer, which hasn't been to the dyno yet.
to run in the Production Class at Bonneville the rules appear to require a stock and unaltered exhaust system, so it may come down to running the bike in essentially stock form, stock 08 exhaust (I bought on eBay another stock 08 header with cat still in), the Power Commander to allow the stock fuel map to be leaned out for the density altitude at Bonnevile of 4,000 - 7,000 feet, a slightly smaller rear sprocket (probably a 40 or maybe 39), some way to defeat the top speed limiter (all I have seen so far is Speedo Healer of Muzzy Bonneville Pro, both off which seem like another band aid type solution), and optimize setup as carefully as possible, cams already carefully degreed, etc.
I am just looking into ceramic wheel bearings, if my math is right I calculated that at 200 mph wheel bearings are spinning less than 300 rpm, so I am not necessarily convinced that ceramic bearing balls running in steel races are going to make much of a friction difference, although I am curious about full ceramic bearings, with ceramic races as well as ceramic balls......
anyways, thanks all, I will keep muddling along, and if anyone cracks an 08 ECU and/or has an 08 ZX 14 stock ignition map available, there are obviously lots of us who will be greatly interested in that information.
Paul
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laverda1200
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WRECKSHOP
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posted January 02, 2010 09:36 AM
RidgeRacer and Guhls Motors has all of the info that you are looking for !!!
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2010 09:49 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2010 17:52
quote:
I am just looking into ceramic wheel bearings, if my math is right I calculated that at 200 mph wheel bearings are spinning less than 300 rpm, so I am not necessarily convinced that ceramic bearing balls running in steel races are going to make much of a friction difference, although I am curious about full ceramic bearings, with ceramic races as well as ceramic balls......
By my calculations:
5280 feet = 1 mile
Tire circumference = 78"
5280 feet *12 = 63300 inches per mile
200 * 63300 = 12672000 inches per hour
12672000/60 = 211200 inches per minute
211200/78 = 2707.69 wheel rpm at 200 mph
This also comes out to be a speed of 293.33 fps.
Whether the ceramics make a difference is open for debate (I have them), but that is the math involved.
Shane
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laverda1200
Parking Attendant
Posts: 23
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posted January 02, 2010 11:41 AM
Hi Shane
thanks for the maths correction, I had calculated aroumd 270 rpm, so I must have shifted a decimal point somehow.....
at 2,700 rpm at 200 mph, it would be interesting to know the friction difference, if any, between steel rollers in a steel race vs ceramic rollers in a steel race......
a stee/steel bearing is often rated for at least 12,000 rpm typically, and some of the ceramic ball bearings running in steel races are rated to 18,000 rpm, so 2,700 is nowwhere near design limits for either. Then there are the issues of lubrication, dust seal design (if any), etc.
if I could be assured that changing from steel/steel wheel bearings to steel/ceramic at least wouldn't result in any more friction, then for the relatively small amount of money in the overall scheme of things I would make the change....but the steel/ceramic bearings I see offered for sale appear to use a dust seal only on one side, I am wondering if deleting one seal is the actual frtction difference which could just as easily be done with a steel/steel bearing, whether I need to worry about salt intrusion into the bearing, etc.....
this is all new to me, I have never run on the salt before, I am just trying to give consideration to as many things as I can think of, the scarier part is what I might NOT think of.....as I am going to be the rider.
Paul
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laverda1200
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2010 11:46 AM
My bearings are completely sealed, afaik. I don't think ceramic bearings make huge mph difference, and I would concentrate on other aspects of your setup and technique. Although I have not been to the salt, I do compete at the Maxton, NC and Loring, ME paved venues.
Just as an FYI, the difference in rolling resistance is easily detected pushing the bike in the pits. For me, that makes it worth it...these bikes are not light!
Shane
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laverda1200
Parking Attendant
Posts: 23
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posted January 02, 2010 11:56 AM
Hi Shane
thanks for that, I hadn't realized that there would be a perceptible difference in just pushing the bike around. That might translate into a mph or two at top end, I think I'll order the ceramic/steel wheel beearings as part of my overall shopping list.
what sort of speed have you reached at the paved top speed venues?
Paul
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laverda1200
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2010 12:00 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2010 20:05
At Loring we had a strong tailwind this year. My highest speed was 211.97 mph in 1.5 miles. I believe that to be the fastest naturally aspirated speed ever officially recorded for a stock motored ZX-14.
At Maxton I ran 193.xx mph in one mile, with a density altitude of 2500+ feet, in the month of June.
You can read about the progression of my bike from new/bone stock to where it is now in this thread:
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=40269&set_time=
There are also informal "race reports" in there, from the dragstrp and LSR events that I have attended since July of 2008.
I was also able to get it into the 8's at the dragstrip in November. It was a productive season for me. 
Shane
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laverda1200
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posted January 02, 2010 03:37 PM
Hi Shane
thanks for the link to your build thread. I am new here and had not seen your thread before. Looks like you have been there ahead of me for a lot of the changes I am making. I do all the work myself, I am a vintage racer, build all my own stuff, have for the past 35 years.
Like you I had never tackled an upside down cartridge fork before, so I made the necessary compressor tool from some threaded rod and a couple of hunks of angle iron, I have both forks apart for installation of the Muzzy's lowering spacers, and the rest of the bike (with less than 1,200 initial break in miles on it) pretty much completely dis-assembled at the moment. After the vintage bikes I am used to, everything is pretty closely packed, just getting to the cams to degree them in was a real space challenge for me......much easier to do with the engine out of the frame.....but wouldn't want to drop the engine every time to do valve clearances, etc.
Anything that I am going to race I always completely dis-assemble to the bare frame and build it back up myself, as I am the rider and I will only trust the safety of my body to my own work.....
I'll spend some time reading your build thread carefully, thanks again, looks very useful.
Paul
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laverda1200
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johnbull
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posted January 04, 2010 11:47 AM
Thats one hell of an interesting thread Shane, well done.
Paul, any luck on obtaining the OEM ignition map for the ZX14 yet? I'm positive I saw it somewhere on this site but I just cant remember where!
I agree with you that adjusting timing from the ignition rotor on the crank is not at all the ideal way to do things as this alters your whole map from top to bottom. With the ignition module which plugs in to the power commander you can advance and retard wherever you like throughout the rev range against throttle position. That is the ideal way to do it.
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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laverda1200
Parking Attendant
Posts: 23
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posted January 04, 2010 01:19 PM
Hi John and Shane
nope, haven't found a ZX 14 stock ignition map, and I am up to page 15 of Shane's exceptional thread, lots of food for thought there for sure, still reading.....
Paul
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laverda1200
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Swiftkart
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posted January 05, 2010 09:55 AM
Edited By: Swiftkart on 5 Jan 2010 17:56
Look here, it has a zx14 map for the 06/07 ignition posted on pg. 5 I think.
http://psychobike.com/forums/kawasaki-zx12r-zx14/25855-reflashing-zx14-5.html
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2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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laverda1200
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posted January 05, 2010 01:33 PM
Thanks very much, Swiftkart
I followed everything back to its original posted source, a member named "Stocker", indicates this is an ignition timing map for 06/07 ZX 14
http://psychobike.com/forums/kawasaki-zx12r-zx14/25855-reflashing-zx14-4.html#post274567
basically, at 100% throttle, goes from 12 degrees BTDC to 32,5 degrees BTDC in a pretty smooth climb, and no indication in hte map of timing cut to limit top speed.
I guess the ECU and software for 08 and later ZX 14 are different, wonder if timing map is different as well?
Paul
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laverda1200
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johnbull
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posted January 06, 2010 12:37 AM
Yes, I would imagine that the 08/09 would have different ignition maps. They also use a totally different ECU if I'm not mistaken.
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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JDC
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posted January 06, 2010 08:33 AM
Edited By: JDC on 6 Jan 2010 16:35
quote:
Hi JDC
very very useful, thanks for the dyno charts.
Looking at your dyno chart, the stock ignition map looks like it runs pretty well, and your dyno numbers look very realistic.
Paul
One thing very important about dyno numbers, don't use them to compare bikes, unless all the bikes are dyno'd on the same dyno, maybe even the same day. I had several hundred+ dyno runs on a dynojet and that bike came in 12-18 HP less than a group of bikes dyno'd in a different state, by some folks who many, many, maaaaaany folks thought the other guys 'modded' (highest HP pipes - that was their claim anyway) bikes were the kings of HP for that bike brand. A number of them by chance came out to Calif and I had arranged all to get dyno tunes. Both pre and post tune the HP numbers were interesting.
Final note, my bike was 7-10 HP higher than any of them, all done on the same dyno. They could not believe their eyes. I was very surprised, as well, but a great lesson learned. Dyno's are great to use for your own bike, pre-modifications and then post modifications....
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laverda1200
Parking Attendant
Posts: 23
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posted January 06, 2010 11:15 AM
Hi JDC
I agree with you concerning dyno's. There are half a dozen DynoJet 250's local to me in my city. I have run the same bike in same state of tune on a couple of them, different results from each. I suppose from a business operator's perspective big numbers from the shop dyno might draw more business and bragging rights.......
For mapping/tuning I prefer to utilize an eddy current type dyno where the load can be varied and the motor held steady under load at any rpm. As there is no eddy current type dyno local to me it means I have to trailer my bikes a considerable distance from home to access an eddy current dyno, but I think it is worth the drive. The numbers arising from an eddy current dyno are typically lower than from a DynoJet 250 by at least 12 - 15%, but it is not the number itself I am interested in, rather I am attempting to map the fuel injection (or in the case of my vintage race bikes, carb settings, ignition timing, and cam timing) for very best power for my purposes.
Knowing what the stock ignition map actually is, and then being able to vary parts of it, would also potentially be a very useful tool. I am rooting for the fellow working to unlock the stock ECU, particularly for the 08/09 ZX 14 ECU. I still don't understand yet how the stock top speed limiter actually accomplishes it's task, whether it is fuel or timing, but it would be the best of all worlds to remove the top speed limiter, vary ignition timing, and vary fuel mapping, all from the stock ECU rather than using all these add ons designed to "fool" the stock systems. Dream on, I guess, at least for now.......
Paul
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laverda1200
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JDC
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posted January 06, 2010 11:25 AM
Laverda,
I'm with you on waiting for the ECU hack/multiple maps/map each gear, timing re-mapping....
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johnbull
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posted January 06, 2010 03:36 PM
Laverda,
Re, the top speed limiter you mentioned above, does this just behave like the normal rev limiter on the bike i.e hits the rev limiter in 6th gear?
I ask this because I use my zx14 motor in a race car and havent seemed to encounter this problem. The only difference from the bike is that I dont run the dashboard. Could this be why it doesnt seem to kick in on mine?
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John Bul Racing. Malta.
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