JDC
Zone Head
Posts: 570
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posted December 30, 2009 05:30 PM
 Edited By: JDC on 31 Dec 2009 01:31
quote:
I'm going to weight in here...I should keep my trap shut but oh well .
.I find a turbo very hard to ride fast , i'm talking about drag racing here and not LSR or street riding ..Problem is no boost off the line, a turbo motor is somewhat lazy off boost making it hard to 60 foot like an all motor bike ..
I've never done any drag racing, but wouldn't setting the RPM limitor for 1st gear to 5-6K solve the lazy coming off boost when the light hits green? My mild turbo comes on a 4K and is at max (7) by 5.2 to 5.5K, or there abouts.
  
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted December 30, 2009 06:05 PM
quote:
quote:
I'm going to weight in here...I should keep my trap shut but oh well .
.I find a turbo very hard to ride fast , i'm talking about drag racing here and not LSR or street riding ..Problem is no boost off the line, a turbo motor is somewhat lazy off boost making it hard to 60 foot like an all motor bike ..
I've never done any drag racing, but wouldn't setting the RPM limitor for 1st gear to 5-6K solve the lazy coming off boost when the light hits green? My mild turbo comes on a 4K and is at max (7) by 5.2 to 5.5K, or there abouts.
Not that easy ...Go to the strip and give it a try ...To have boost you must load the motor ..At the line with the clutch pulled in you have no load or boost ...The problem is by the time you do build boost the other guy is long gone .It takes a real skilled clutch hand to build boost early in the run ..To much and you spin or wheely , to little and you bog and will have to wait for boost to build .. Time is everything , if you blow one second of time in the first 60 feet you will have one slow turbo bike. You realy have to try it for yourself to know what i'm talking about ..This is where turbo boost controllers , slider clutches and other tricks come into play ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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01smokes
Needs a job
Posts: 2243
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posted December 30, 2009 06:11 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm going to weight in here...I should keep my trap shut but oh well .
.I find a turbo very hard to ride fast , i'm talking about drag racing here and not LSR or street riding ..Problem is no boost off the line, a turbo motor is somewhat lazy off boost making it hard to 60 foot like an all motor bike ..
I've never done any drag racing, but wouldn't setting the RPM limitor for 1st gear to 5-6K solve the lazy coming off boost when the light hits green? My mild turbo comes on a 4K and is at max (7) by 5.2 to 5.5K, or there abouts.
Not that easy ...Go to the strip and give it a try ...To have boost you must load the motor ..At the line with the clutch pulled in you have no load or boost ...The problem is by the time you do build boost the other guy is long gone .It takes a real skilled clutch hand to build boost early in the run ..To much and you spin or wheely , to little and you bog and will have to wait for boost to build .. Time is everything , if you blow one second of time in the first 60 feet you will have one slow turbo bike. You realy have to try it for yourself to know what i'm talking about ..This is where turbo boost controllers , slider clutches and other tricks come into play ..
+1 ive seen a guy pick up over a second in time when he put in his multi stage
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1badzx12r
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Posts: 8321
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posted December 30, 2009 06:20 PM
To much and you spin or wheely , to little and you bog
isn't that a never ending battle to all bikes.. except the 1's with them funny clutches
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Bawls
Needs a job
re-learning to ride
Posts: 2701
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posted December 30, 2009 07:48 PM
fuck it... i want a big boost turbo at 70" on a slider lol
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Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted December 30, 2009 08:41 PM
Edited By: davej on 31 Dec 2009 04:58
The turbo is very hard to predict. Starts like a pussy cat then wants to hook up at the worst possible time mid track. Or takes off the start with attitude and wheelies. Dennis on his 500 hp Busa did a 11.00 clock wheelie mid track and scared the crap out of everyone. How he recovered is still a mystery. His bike is also full street legal not one of those stripped down fake street machines.
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Triumph guy
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JDC
Zone Head
Posts: 570
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posted January 01, 2010 01:25 PM
smokin,
Ah, that makes sense - got it, thanks
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted January 01, 2010 02:18 PM
after doing alittle thinking ,,, maybe adding a small 20 shot to the $2200 stroker would make an honest 220 hp motor for $2400 dollars. That would be less than $50 bucks per hp
keeping the rpms down to 10k rpm would mean that no springs are needed , stock cams can still be used , no real need to buy a $1500 exhaust , no head work needed ...
This combination is sounding more reasonable than a turbo or head/cams/stroker.
Roy
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 01, 2010 02:27 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 1 Jan 2010 22:35
Roy, I think you are just about insane:
1) Nobody planning to race is likely to build a 5mm stroker on stock rods (not even you). Add $1000 to your cost.
2) Who is this guy who assembles these motors for free? Please post his information. 
3) Why not a stock motor with a 40 shot dry? $300 and 215 hp. Same level of complexity, and a whole lot cheaper.
This guy is killing me.....next thing you know and he'll be trying to run a car tire on his bike... 
Shane
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted January 01, 2010 02:41 PM
quote:
Roy, I think you are just about insane:
1) Nobody planning to race is likely to build a 5mm stroker on stock rods (not even you). Add $1000 to your cost.
I had to buy rods , but I was willing to use the stock rods
quote:
2) Who is this guy who assembles these motors for free? Please post his information.
anyone with a brain .... the manual is really good if you can read
quote:
3) Why not a stock motor with a 40 shot dry? $300 and 215 hp. Same level of complexity, and a whole lot cheaper.
you wont have 120 ft/lbs torque without hitting the button , besides, that is how I got into this mess ...
quote:
This guy is killing me.....next thing you know and he'll be trying to run a car tire on his bike...
Shane
you would have to if you had enough torque :-0
Roy
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted January 01, 2010 02:49 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 1 Jan 2010 22:52
1) Somehow I doubt that a properly tuned 40 shot got you into this mess.
2) So, anyone with a brain builds race motors and does a good job? Somehow your past woes are starting to make sense...
3) If a 500+ hp turbo can go 265 mph on a bike tire...why was it you need a car tire again?
Roy, I have to admit it..you are a master of interpreting the data to reflect your desired results.
This thread is about bang-for-buck, right? So you have $3200+bearings, seals, etc in your motor and it is making just under 200 hp on E85. You had to build it yourself, which is apparently a piece of cake....for you. Does that about sum it up?
See you at the track this year. 
Shane
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted January 01, 2010 04:00 PM
quote:
1) Somehow I doubt that a properly tuned 40 shot got you into this mess.
2) So, anyone with a brain builds race motors and does a good job? Somehow your past woes are starting to make sense...
3) If a 500+ hp turbo can go 265 mph on a bike tire...why was it you need a car tire again?
Roy, I have to admit it..you are a master of interpreting the data to reflect your desired results.
This thread is about bang-for-buck, right? So you have $3200+bearings, seals, etc in your motor and it is making just under 200 hp on E85. You had to build it yourself, which is apparently a piece of cake....for you. Does that about sum it up?
See you at the track this year.
Shane
doest that mean you cant build your own motor ?
Roy
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 01, 2010 04:05 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2010 00:17
quote:
doest that mean you cant build your own motor ?
Roy
No. It means that I wouldn't waste my time and money building a 1534 to make 15 hp over a stock motor bike with bolt-ons. It is also my firm belief that there is a big difference between an "engine builder" and a "parts assembler".
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Bawls
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re-learning to ride
Posts: 2701
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posted January 01, 2010 04:39 PM
+1
____________
Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted January 01, 2010 05:51 PM
Don't have a 14 but I've sprayed a 40 shot on pump gas in my 12R for a good 3 years with no issues. At the start of the 3rd year I put in aftermarket valve springs to keep things a little safer up top at high rpms. It probably robs 1-2 HP but I sleep at night.
Last year I increased the bike's ability to deliver fuel and upped the shot to a 60 shot. In doing so I started getting a little more serious with datalogging to make sure things were safe from injectors, air fuel ratio, etc. The "cost" also went up slightly because I no longer ran pump fuel while spraying, erring on the side of safety. To make things easier on components with this larger shot I sprung for the cheapest progressive controller I could find, $149 new.
But at the end of the day, presuming one already has the basics like a full exhaust, better air filters and some way of introducing more fuel like a power commander, I'd say without a doubt NOTHING can touch the bang for the buck of a $300 dry kit. Nitrous is the cheapest in the beginning although the costs can add up. Then again, last I checked, MR9 is about the same price as C16 AND Nitrous....food for thought.
Roy, since you already stroked the motor I'd finish the job. The real HP is in the head and you'll need that HP if you are trying to compete in a world where your rivals are probably smaller riders or somewhat more aerodyanmic bikes like the Hayabusa. It sounds like you are a little coy with nitrous, the old "once bitten twice shy" syndrome. Its not up to me to be the community spokesperson when it comes to nitrous. I'm just a guy that likes it simple, fast and cheap...and strictly looking at the subject with those biased goggles nitrous is the clear winner.
FYI if you remember a few years back Greg was running a 40 or 45 shot on his stock motor zx14 with C16 in the tank....it was when he upped it to a 55 shot on the 2nd day of the races AND dilluted it a 50/50 mix of pump AND C16 did he pop it. He essentially leaned out the bike with air AND fuel, which is a no-no unless you know what you are doing in terms of tuning. You don't have to be afraid of the 40 shot, many people spray a 40 all day.
Good luck with your build. FWIW on the 3rd year of racing my trans started going out on the 12R so I sent that out to get built up proper and no complaints.
A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted January 01, 2010 06:07 PM
Not taking sides but 15 HP ? where did that number come from ... The 1530 makes 27 HP at peak and at a few spots 6000 and up made over 30 HP over my zx14... Even if you take away 5 hp for the E85 fuel it's 22 to 25 HP .. Had i leaned the map out i'm sure peak HP would be 4 or 5 more HP ...I look at the hole power curve and that dyno chart fat with power 4000 and up .. I'm not saying that the 1530 motor is the way to go or it's the best bang for your buck .. I'm just putting the numbers out there ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Shane661
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posted January 01, 2010 06:19 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2010 02:21
Yeah, but Lee...are you saying that a well tuned stock motor bike on MR9 with good exhaust, power commander, velocity stacks and a free flowing filter can't make 182 hp??
Sure, Roy is running E85...that's his choice. I run MR9. MR9 might not be the best choice for his motor.
Even if you said the stock motor bike only made 180 hp...what's the difference? 17 HP for $3200 in parts...plus gaskets, seals, labor. It's not very much bang for the buck, imo. Even if you build it with stock rods ...then you still will have over $2500 in it, doing the labor yourself....and you have stock cams, stock valve springs, stock trans, stock rods. All that work for 17 hp..
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted January 01, 2010 06:29 PM
quote:
Yeah, but Lee...are you saying that a well tuned stock motor bike on MR9 with good exhaust, power commander, velocity stacks and a free flowing filter can't make 182 hp??
Sure, Roy is running E85...that's his choice. I run MR9. MR9 might not be the best choice for his motor.
Even if you said the stock motor bike only made 180 hp...what's the difference? 17 HP for $3200 in parts...plus gaskets, seals, labor. It's not very much bang for the buck, imo. Even if you build it with stock rods ...then you still will have over $2500 in it, doing the labor yourself....and you have stock cams, stock valve springs, stock trans, stock rods. All that work for 17 hp..
Shane do you read what the fuck i posted ? I said "I'm not saying it the best bang for the buck " All i'm posting is the numbers , don't like them don't read them ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 01, 2010 06:40 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2010 02:54
Lee, this is bang for the buck thread.
Based on the numbers I read, a stock motored bike can make within 15-17 hp at peak (basically 9-11k rpm) of Roy's motor. Either you believe a stock motor bike on MR9 can pull 180-182 hp...or you don't.
Anyway, let's let the numbers at the track speak for themselves.
Shane
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted January 01, 2010 06:45 PM
quote:
Lee, this is bang for the buck thread.
Based on the numbers I read, a stock motored bike can make within 15-17 hp at peak (basically 9-11k rpm) of Roy's motor. Either you believe a stock motor bike on MR9 can pull 180-182 hp...or you don't.
Anyway, let's let the numbers at the track speak for themselves.
Shane
The point is you will not make 182 on my dyno .... And shane i don't start this best bang for the buck thread ... I only added the number for my dyno runs ...I'm not telling anyone to buy a fucking 1530 kit or saying it's the best bang for the bucks ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted January 01, 2010 08:24 PM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 2 Jan 2010 04:28
 Roys 1530 kit Vs My stock motor zx14 ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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01smokes
Needs a job
Posts: 2243
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posted January 01, 2010 11:57 PM
Edited By: 01smokes on 2 Jan 2010 08:01
.
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01smokes
Needs a job
Posts: 2243
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posted January 02, 2010 12:00 AM
Edited By: 01smokes on 2 Jan 2010 08:02
quote:
quote:
Roys 1530 kit Vs My stock motor zx14 ...
My bike with right at 1000 bucks in to it including pipe, air filter and 40 shot this is with 101 out of the pump
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01smokes
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Posts: 2243
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posted January 02, 2010 12:00 AM
Edited By: 01smokes on 2 Jan 2010 08:01
..
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 02, 2010 03:29 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jan 2010 11:33
Well, compared to Lee's bike, mine is a little different:
1) MR9 Fuel
2) Short Velocity Stacks
3) Brock's CT Pipe, no muffler
Whether these changes can add up to 9-11 hp up top over his bike on his dyno, I don't know. I'm inclined to believe so, but that's just my opinion. Perhaps my bike will end up on Lee's dream-crushing dyno one day.
Shane
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